Character Classes Update/RE-Balancing

[the legit]

Yesterday I gave my opinion on Uchiha, now its your turn

Adventurer:
In Fort Fights, your aim is increased by 15%. /30%.
In Fort Fights, if alone in sector, your resistance is increased by 50%/100%.
Speed 50%/100%.
Chance to get product increased by 25%.
If you get hurt at work, you earn 50% more money.

I dislike the aim buff since already a part of workers kit.

Really like your proposal of 50/100% resistance buff for adventurers.
The values can be tweaked but the approach is really good.

Working buffs seem fine too, I would say though, a Luck % buff would be more appealing. Being able to get higher rare items is fun (especially cus in addition to new Waupee, they'll be releasing the other Saloon char items too)

Duelist: no dueling from distance.
In Fort Fights, you have chance 4%/8% for crit rate. Your chance to crit is 10%/20% if on your own tower.
Your speed on map is increased by 25%/50%.
Your dodge is incread by 10%/20% during duel.
Your dueling level grows 25%/50% slower.

I feel like the crit chance suggestion would be very much in favor of defenders , in comparison to attack. Would make attacking impossible.
Defending meta would be tanking face on from towers to attacking starting side.
A crit nerf chance in general is something I would like though.

Duelling level is already limit and controlled by duel motivation. Some people actually want to increase duel level for ranks, as duelling at higher ranks gives more duel xp, so you'd be hurting those people. If one wants to not gain duel level while duelling they already do that and keep duel motiv at 10% and then use the 6 month reset potion. So there is no need to this, and to some would be a negative class trait, which should never be the case.

Speed is somewhat trivial at this point, and, again, that buff would just be significant to the duel radius, which, I am oposed against. I think literally being able to duel someone on the other side of the map is unfair. That class trait was designed to be able to duel people in the proximity not everywhere. I think it warrants a nerf actually.

Dodge suggestion is fine, I prefer the appearance buff and giving dodge to adventurers but the bottomline is the same, a buff.

Builder:
Experience from jobs, duels, FF and town building 10%/20%.
If attacked while building in town, your HP is increased by 100%/200%,
In Fort Fights, your dodging and aiming is increased by 20%/40%. You will get additional 10% extra bonus if alone in secotr.
In Fort Fights, your soldier neighbour gets 10%/20% bonus from your setting traps/hiding.

Experience suggestion is too OP. It is fine as currently stands. If anything i would say:
Experience from duels, FF and town building 10%/20%.
Not jobs though.

The hp while being attacked buff is interesting, although I feel hard to implement. As stated before, the hardened buff of reflex/toughness buff seems in my opinion easier to implement, understand and function.

10% alone sector buff I dislike. I don't think workers need to change in FFs , if you want to buff them just revert the last nerf to them and bring them back to 25/50% instead, quick and easy. Don't think workers need a nerf or buff atm.

Also don't think the soldiers need a buff coming from the workers class perks.

Soldier:
Your regeneration is increased by 30%/60%.
HP the same
In Fort Fight, your leadership is increased by 35%/70% for you and your neighbours.
In Fort Fights, your waepon dmg is increased by 20-40 / 40-80. This bonus can be combines with other buff for dmg.
In duels, your aim gets 10%/20% increased if attacked.

I understand the regen suggestion as capping off for every fort fight requires daily usage off health buffs pretty much.
With that said, the regen buff also gives even more Survivability to soldiers while working, when they already have the extra hp which serves the same purpose when getting duelled. So I am not sure about this, don't know if I agree or disagree.

Don't really feel Soldier needs buffs in FFs as it currently stands, a nerf to damage would already buff tanks which is what I feel needed.

In duels the tactics buff is already overpowered, the extra hp is also incredible. Giving soldier yet another duel buff is bad (and I main a soldier).
I already think tactics need a nerf.

 

[Emma Swan]

Yesterday I gave my opinion on Uchiha, now its your turn

I am thinking for servers full of players or where you cant fill 1 tower in ff for example, or dueling 10 people on th emap max.

Adventurer deserves justice, bonus aim is probably the best option, there are many that prefer to go dmg as well... You have sometimes team with too many adventurer, yes it happens.

Soldier and builder and their collab is something else. Nowdays builder is better for blocking sectors and can be used as main tank on tower as well, meanwhile adv is dangerous if in front. Builder is usually on the top dueling list for duelist that are afraid to attack proper duelists but want easy win, so if builder can get extra xp from even building church is appropriate, after all its builder.

Duelists need speed because of no distance dueling. As for crits I was writing it too late and tired so I wrote it incorrectly not as i wanned lol I meant 10-20 on the ground, and lowet crit chance if you are on tower. Logically on the ground you can get higher chance to crit, but lower chance to hit. and on tower reversed, higher chance to hit but lower to crit. Nerf duelists dmg could cause huge problems for servers where tank has 50k dmg, they would not be able to put them down to be honest in 56 rounds.

as for sodier, take a look, i didnt suggest tactic bonus at all, thats why bonus aim. Why? You can overpower aiming, without soldier tactic bonus you can easily win if you have proper combo set for attack. As for regeneration it is not fair to be full hp and not having anything in reward from that aside FF. Soldier was made for FF [I am fine if soldier has no duel bonus at all honestly]. So regeneration is just fine. It could be only HP regeneration, in general you will loose almost same % at work anyway as somebody without any hp points added at all.

Anyway, not all my suggestiosn are great. But its because I take into consideration many factors, from servers where are 4 people active to servers where you can have full big fort of players. Thats why some things doesnt make sense for you, but are important for otherts where they play 20 vs 20 or 10 vs 10.

also, somebody mensioned this si not official for suggestions, I disagree. More we talk about it, more it bring this topic into spotlight. So keep suggesting i would say. (they wont use ours anyway, but maybe they will move their lazyness aside for once)

 

[BaggyBlue]

Now what about the 8th rank where it was announced but not comb? Lieutenant General

 

[dankolo]

I can't even read this, Its a big clownshow on InnoGames side, that they can't balance class bonuses and make other changes to the game just to milk players of their money

 

[ss68]

Ok so since everyone is expressing their opinion, here is mine.
1. Worker: he is fine as it is, most players would say its the most balanced class and I tend to agree. Maybe a tiiiny bit too good for the current church-building meta because of the extra xp, motivation for building and bonus to attributes but I guess it balances out by not having any buffs towards other jobs. Maybe the motivation trait should be removed.
2. Dueler: again, another class I would say is balanced. Pretty straight forward, its what you expect a dueler to be. Very high focus on duels and high damage in FFs. If I were to change anything, I would make it so having high HP on dueler reduces the crit chance.
3. Soldier: This is where it gets tricky. The 3 level reduced requirement for weapons is straight up worthless and outdated. 25% tactics in duels is a lot. Replacing these 2 would be beneficial but you have to think about it carefuly and find a suitable role for the soldier outside of FFs. Maybe some work motivation regen bonus or something ?
4. Adventurer: the neglected country-side cousin. Sleeping in level 2 hotels for free is outdated and worthless in the current meta. I dont think the reduced danger is a flat 10%, I think it only reduces 10% of the total danger of the work(so if the total danger is 20%, the trait only reduces 2%). You could make it flat 10%. Same goes for luck and product drop chance traits. Other than that, PVE side is completly fine, relyable class to farm stuff but when it comes to the FF trait.. its weird. The adventurer is supposed to be this ghost that ignores hits(which is rarely the case), kind of like a banner holder that goes in front of the soldiers to shield them. On paper, sounds great;in practice, it sucks. You could help this frontline intended nature of the adventurer by making them regen X% of HP when they get more than 3 times in a round.

 

[WhyN0t]

You could help this frontline intended nature of the adventurer by making them regen X% of HP when they get more than 3 times in a round.

It's interesting, but I think it's too complicated to be implemented. Maybe more damage dealt and less damage received would be easier to implement. And some adventure bonus.

 

[Emma Swan]

It's interesting, but I think it's too complicated to be implemented. Maybe more damage dealt and less damage received would be easier to implement. And some adventure bonus.

They can add tallking unicorn if they want, the thing is they are lazy because there are too not smart players buying everything even if its not an improvement from things they have already. They usually dont care what comes, thats why this game is dead. If people stopped buying nuggets to get items 5% better than other sets, the west app would be here sooner or later. But if you are getting money for the same cake, why bother to add something new?

 

[WhyN0t]

They can add tallking unicorn if they want, the thing is they are lazy

This is not true. The game's code is very old and written poorly. They can't really add many complicated things. And the resources allocated for The West are small, the game is not in primetime anymore. The problem is that they can introduce small, easy to implement, but impactful changes, but it doesn't happen and I don't understand why.

 

[JustR3D]

Let me share my opinion on this topic, but first let's make some introductions.
I started playing tw in 2012, and went on and off for about a decade. I used to have a level 150 adventurer in 2016, but when worlds merged in my domestic server, I finally decided to delete my old account in favor of a lower-level soldier I imported from another world. The reason was pretty simple: duel wars were raging at the time, and I could not perform as I wanted with the adventurer class.

And like me, there are a lot of players who made this choice and decided to give up a PvE account in order to compete in PvP. Today we would have characters very high in level, but we simply decided to make a sacrifice and start again. Weakening our class (or the dueller) would simply not be fair.

Now you'd think that I have a biased point of view, and maybe I do, and that I am against rebalancing, but I believe it's not true. So let's dive in the core of the discussion.

The game offers you two PvP-centric classes, and two PvE-centric classes. I believe it is fair, different playstyles call for different bonuses. This equilibrium should remain: it is simply not fair to transform adventurer or worker in PvP beasts, since they enjoyed the benefits of PvE gameplay for a long time (nowadays they are less relevant, but in the past they really affected people's disposable income and xp). And if you look at the exp-rankings of servers, the front pages are dominated by PvE classes, since these players picked these characters because they preferred (at least at the time) PvE over PvP, and truly extracted the benefits these kind of characters could give them.
What I'm trying to say, is that the nature of the classes shall not be altered.

Now, I often read a lot of b*****t about duels and FF in this forum, also from very experienced players - at least on paper, and I often ask myself if people really understand the game. Apparently very few do, and reactions on the cowboy's in love set are the living proof that people do not know how to duel, and instead of learning, they simply blame the game mechanics.
I am stating this, simply because I can't stand reading bs such as "the dueller sucks in duels compared to the soldier and yada, yada, yada..."

Before reviewing current situation, let me state few things about duels, and I truly think that top duellers will agree with me.

At the moment winning in ATTACK against an OFF players is fairly easy, even with a 10+ difference in levels. Obviously we are talking about skilled vs skilled or non-skilled vs non-skilled matchups. And often is easy even to win a non-skilled vs skilled duel. It simply is. If you can not do it, then get good and invest in equipment. Clothes (and mastering the ability to mix them) have always been the key to succeed in duels. Nowadays the offering is vast, with many exotic pieces turning to be crucial in specific scenarios.
On the opposite, it is fairly easy to win in DEFENCE if you are ON. You can counter pretty much every attacking configuration, unless the gap between your level and the level of the attacker is very relevant (20+ levels), but even in that case, there is a chance of successfully defending.

Cowboy's in love and Nat set have simplified (I'd say, even solved) duels, both in attack and defence. They are broken, full stop. In my opinion it is not fair to the new players that Nat's set is unattainable, but that's life.


Now let's come to the actual analysis of the classes:

Soldier
At the moment, the soldier is without any doubt a very strong class. It was designed to be consistent in PvP, and it is. Full stop.
- PV bonus (+5/pv or +10/pv ) -> Reducing it would weaken them in duels? Not that much, honestly. Different story is for FF. But you can absolutely not touch this bonus without working also on duellers crit chance. At the moment duellers are balanced for soldiers and the opposite way around. I really fear that nerfs of these two classes, if not perfectly balanced, will compeltely screw things. That is why I am more benevolent towards buffing weak classes, than nerfing strong ones.
- Reduced level for weapons (-3 or -6 ) -> Nowadays obsolete and has no point of existing anymore. It should be replaced with something a little bit more useful, consistent with the nature of the class, but ultimately not relevant in PvP. Faster health regen for forts would help. It is a very weak bonus, since people nowadays use buffs (I don't even remember the last time i slept to recover hp or energy), but still usefull to some to recharge PVs before a FF. Another option could be something like +10% exp (multiplicative) in FF.
- Tactics bonus (+25%/+50%) -> let me be honest, it is a very strong bonus in duels. Is it unbeatable as many depict it? Absolutely not. There is a plenty of way of bypassing very high tactics when attacking a character. PLENTY. It heavily depends on the skills matchup, but it has always been like that, with the difference that nowadays clothing really helps you compensate your weak points. New sets make beating defending soldiers fairly easy. If you can't figure out how, than simply get good. They have increased aim, nothing else.
- Fort battle bonus (+25%/+50% leadership) -> in my opinion it is a cool feature. It helps to reduce randomness in FF by rewarding tactical ability and focus of generals (and individuals) during fights. I honestly would not change it.

Remember that soldiers have 4 instead of 5 class bonuses.


Dueller
Let me be straight forward: dueller is not weaker than soldier. Some of its features are obsolete and shall be changed, but relevant bonuses are strong - at least in the current meta.
- Speed (+10%/+20%) -> Ok, this is pretty obsolete nowadays, but it combos very well with the duelling radius. Keep it as it is, or substitue it with something else, such as +10% exp (multiplicative) in duels.
- Duel motivation regen (+40%/+80%) -> Does it stink? Yes. Is it completely useless? No. It could be left as it is.
- Cash from duels (+10%/+20%) -> Obsolete. If you want to keep this cash centric, they could get a bonus cash on every bounty they get. (5% dead or alive, 25% only dead - otherwise they could break the game through pushing bounties)
- Crit chance in FF (10%/20%) -> Strong. Same reasoning about the soldier's hp applies here.
- Duel range (15mins/30mins) -> Strong. People that claim this is useless, have zero understanding of duels. This bonus often allows you to attack ON people as they were OFF. Let me be more clear: they give you a HUGE advantage in PvP, since - as I clearly stated before - it is fairly easy to win duels against an OFF opponent.
- Perception bonus -> Obsolete. Scripts essentially extended this bonus to all players. It needs to be compeltely reworked into something actually useful, but nothing really relevant. Maybe an higher duelling range (I am referring about the gap in duel levels, not distance) could be fine (and also in theme with the "perception" concept)


Worker
Now we start talking about serious things. Worker is not a weak class, needs just some adjustment here and there.
- Experience (+5%/+10%) -> Good, remember it is multiplicative and not additive. Do we want to really reward their PvE? Make it +8% base.
- Banking Taxes (-2%/-4%) -> Idea is still decent (boosts worker's disposable income, since they should earn quite a lot from PvE's activities).
- City labor points bonus (+5%/+10%) -> It makes sense: allows them (even those that are low level) to really push city limits. I'd boost them even more, thus allowing workers to be upgrade cities without being skilled full construction. +12% base could be fine.
- Motivation bonus (10%/20%) -> Here I am a little bit skeptical. It is a decent feature, maybe could receive a little buff.
- Aim/dodging bonus in FF (+20%/+40%) -> Strong. It makes workers very flexible and allows them to succesfully play either as tanks or snipers. In the end they will be weaker than specialized classes (Soldiers & duellers), but opens them to a larger array of gameplay options.

Adventurer
Here we have the tricky part. Let's be honest: adventurer sucks and it is truly unplayable nowadays. It is compeltely useless in FF and not rewarding as the worker in PvE. With adventurer's buffs, however, we need stricter multi-account policies from the staff. There are far too many players who clearly use multis to significantly boost their revenues and, thus, their gameplay. They are not even hard to spot. Time to take some serious action and be fair towards the "true" adventurers.
- Product drop chance (+10%/+20%) -> Needs tu be buffed. +20% base could make sense.
- Item drop chance (+10%/+20%) -> Adventurer's have no exp bonus. At least let's make them rich. +15% base.
- Free use of hotels -> One of the most obsolete featuresfor many reasons I will not waste time stating. Needs a complete transformation. +5% labor points (city development excluded) could be a rewarding bonus, since it increases the uniqueness of the items they can find, as well as facilitates them to perform new jobs.
- Reduced danger (-10%/-20%) -> Obsolete as well. Substitute it with something like "everytime you get hurt during a job, you get back the work motivation used for it". Not a very fancy featurre, but all the classes have their own useless stuff.
- FF bonus (25%/50%) -> Ghosting really sucks. Full stop. If you get ghost, people behind you will take the damage. Considering FF are a team-game, this bonus makes absolutely no sense. With what should it be substituted? I have two proposals:
1) Seems to be very popular, and I agree with it. Resistance bonus +50% (multiplicative) or something like that. Actual number needs obviously some testing, so please do not take it as accurate.
2) Maintain the "ghost" nature of the ability: adventurer's have 25% chance of dodging a critical hit. I think is cool, as well as another way to make them more durable without resorting to resistence.




Before concluding, let me make some points more clear:
- Stop weeping about duels. Start to explore and invest in sets. Nowadays you can really make miracles if you know what you're doing.
- I don't like the idea of nerfing some classes. It is not fair to those who toughtfully picked them, and even less fair to those who sacrificed very good accounts in order to change.
- We need more FF sets designed around workers and aventurers. Nowadays they dress either as duellers or as soldiers. Just spice things up a little bit. Instead of releasing a ton of crappy and useless sets, try to explore this path.


To the very few who were able to tolerate me to this point, thank you very much. We all know that I've wasted my and your time, since our beloved InnoGames will continue to ignore the problem, but at least we can say we tried.

 

[I AM INEVITABLE]

Thank you mr red. Finally someone who knows what he is talking about.

The soldier -lvl weapon use its not completely useless though and like you said every class can have a not great bonus. Maybe buff the levels or give it to all clothes.

 

[the legit]

That is why I am more benevolent towards buffing weak classes, than nerfing strong ones.

This is the bottomline. Agreed.

Bringing everyone up to par not the other way around, starting with adventurer class getting some buffs, which, everyone agrees but the hard part is which buff to get.

JustR3D adventurer proposals line up with mine too, being resistance a core game feature that has yet to be explored class wise I think it is an interesting way to go.
The dodging the critical hit is, to me, a good proposal too.