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Character Classes Update/RE-Balancing

Uchiha Madara

Master Sergeant
Fort battles: In Attack, +25% (50% premium) of Setting Traps is added to Hiding
In Defense, +25% (50% premium) of Hiding is added to Setting Traps
Umm, what? This bonus is even more useless than the hotel bonus of Adventurer , you have only hiding in attack and you have only traps in defense , why would you want a bonus like this? There isnt any mix set that is worth wearing , you lose way to many SP/AP . I am sorry but this is bad.
Obviously, you buffed the schiit out of it
He didn't , the attack and defense bonuses are very bad , he even nerfed the aim/dodge bonus , the only "buff" that he gave is the toughness/reflex bonus which I actually dont mind because workers are the most targeted players in ANY server.

I only like Dueler and Soldier changes though I would say if they dont change the damage formula then a nerf on crit is a must , maybe -4% , Adventurer bonuses look good too but I think could be better.

Worker DOESNT NEED CHANGES ( we wouldnt mind a dueling bonus though )
 

Richard Maverick

Lance Corporal
Umm, what? This bonus is even more useless than the hotel bonus of Adventurer , you have only hiding in attack and you have only traps in defense , why would you want a bonus like this? There isnt any mix set that is worth wearing , you lose way to many SP/AP . I am sorry but this is bad.
I thought of the idea watching the Davis Tutt set, it gives Setting Traps and Hiding. It would give roughly 120 more primary resistance, which is useful and not OP, and would motivate the worker not being full leadership to increase bonus, by moving skills to hiding or setting traps, depending on specializing in attack or defense.

This would translate in an increase in bonus, that's why nerf it to +15% (+30%)

The duel bonus i added it so every class has one, and it'll be somewhat useful

All those changes are meant to provide variety in the game, no just being Damager or Tank
 

the legit

Private First Class
DISCLAIMER: ALL VALUES CAN BE CHANGED JUST CONSIDER THE BASE IDEA

Here's an easy to implement idea I've been thinkering:

Increase the HP gain for every class per level.
Currently HP starts at 110 and every level you get another 10.

Starting HP could be increased to but let's supose it stays at 110 and you get 15 per level

At level 150 instead of 1590 hp everyone would have 2335 hp as a base value.


Reasoning and objetive behind this:

Bringing other classes up to par with soldier in regards to better surviving duels:
Other than soldier classes just having a higher base hp would level out duelling a bit more, in allowing other classes to survive KOs a bit more easily.
The damage is ever increasing and the health gained per level is falling behind. The base health was designed for the game at launch and with the current values I believe in deserves an icrease to keep up with current times. Would, in short, better match the powercreep of damage in duels.
Might equate to surviving an extra shot or two before KO (extra 740 hp at lvl 150)

Gives everyone a bit more base health in Forts which will decrease damage per round of duelists but increase overall damage given, on average, FFs will last couple extra rounds.
Consider 50 level 150s, that's an extra 37k hp in the FF. Minimal value.
Makes it very slightly more survivable for damage dealers and low levels (could be argued that less punishing makes it unnecessarily easier, but then again in most cases even with 2335 hp a lot of per shot damage is already close to the 1/3 max)
Slight nerf to damage per shot on duellers, which, I believe they are overpowered so IMO thats even a good change. Slightly increase to crit damage because everyone will have a bit extra hp. Slightly increase in damage per shot to those who have no hp due to the 1/3 limit now being a bit higher.

Lets suppose a simplified example

Average weapons and Sector damage total 700 base value
And the char has 2500 leadership

currently at 1590 hp - 1800 raw damage per shot

at proposed 2335 hp - 1450 raw damage per shot

In my opinion that is fair but if you feel like that's too much the damage formula can be adjusted too like:
Weapon Damage + Sector Damage + [(Weapon Damage + Sector Damage) × Leadership ÷ (MaxHP × y)]

where y could be like 0,75 (or any value seen fit) which means that increased health would have less effect on the damage nerf
Other idea is that this addition also allows for the health per level to be for example 20 instead of 15, and then just further adjust the damage formula.

^ This new formula would also minimally raise the damage per shot of tanks.

Again the values can be adjusted I just ask you reader to consider the rough idea and its objective:

-Raising the ground level of hp in order to survive the ever increasing damage powercreep (counter argument could be just health being added in more work and duel sets)
- Nerfing the damage in fort fights in an easy manner (counter argument could be make better tank sets and possibly also just controversial that people will disagree they need a nerf)
 

Uchiha Madara

Master Sergeant
This is a repost of my previously suggested changes with a few tweaks...


Adventurer:
The chance to find a product when working a job is increased by 10%. 20%
The chance to find an item during work is increased by 10%. 20%
You can use hotels in foreign towns for free until level 2. You can use the hotel without being at a town.
The chance to get hurt while working a job is lowered by 10%.
Being in a sector alone increases your aim and dodge by 40% , If your health points get reduced to 10% your dodge chance doubles to 80% but you lose 2% HP every round for the next 5 rounds.
Reduce aim and dodge chance of neighbor sectors by 20%. This also affects your team.



Dueler:
The speed on the map is increased by 10%. 25%
The motivation for dueling raises faster. It is increased 40% faster. In duels you receive a bonus of 20% to your appearance skill.
You receive 10% more money in a duel. You receive 10% more money from jobs,duels and fort battles.
In fort battles, you have the chance of 10%(7%) to score a critical hit. Critical hits deduct an additional 10% of the maximum hit points.
You can perform duels within a radius of 15 minutes without traveling there.
Your battle hardened instincts allow you to see which skills and weapon your opponent wield in the duel menu.




Soldier:
For each skill point given to the skill health points you receive an additional 5 3 health points for your character.
The level needed to use a weapon is lowered by 3 levels. ( I find this kinda useless but I don't really know what to replace it with )
In duels you receive a bonus of 25% 15% to your tactic skill.
In fort battles, you increase the leadership skill for you and your four neighbors by 25% 40% of your own leadership skill.
Your battle hardened instincts allow you to see which skills and weapon your opponent wield in the duel menu.



Worker:
The earned experience points for a job are increased by 5%.10%
You pay 2% less banking fees.
When constructing buildings in town you receive a bonus of 5% 15% to your labor points.
The motivation to construct buildings in town rises by 10% 25% faster.
In fort battles, your aiming and dodging are boosted by 20%.
While building, get a bonus of 25% on toughness and reflex.



Note that for some reason Soldier has only 4 unique characteristics rather than the dueler which has 6 so I removed the skill from the dueler that you are able to see skills of other players in dueling page and gave it to soldier. Now every Character has 5 unique characteristics.

Why did I choose this kind of changes?I believe that giving dueling bonuses to Adventurer is not the right thing to do. If you want to compete in dueling just simply select the 2 most logical classes that duel ( Dueler and Soldier ) . Worker is a class that should be the best for XP hunting and building but resistance shows strength and a worker technically speaking is a tough man. Adventurer is a class that will do quests , buy/sell products , work and many other stuff. Dueling is the lowest priority for an Adventurer.

I strongly agree that every class should have their FF bonus but the most love right now must go to Adventurer so even if nothing will change for other classes regarding FF bonuses , Adventurer is a MUST and needs the most attention.
 

WhyN0t

Master Sergeant
So everyone gets duel bonuses except adventurers? And they don't event get an adventure bonus. What a joke.

Since a while all the proposals on the beta are extremely poor quality, they seem to be made without being thought before, you give feedback for the sake of writing on the forum.
 

Uchiha Madara

Master Sergeant
So everyone gets duel bonuses except adventurers? And they don't event get an adventure bonus. What a joke.
Adventurers are the least to be dueled. Simply because most of them are without a town or simply because the ratio of the other classes is much higher than Adventurer. Duelers and Soldiers are dueling , Workers are being dueled the most so yeah. By Adventure bonus you mean actual Adventure bonus? Does anyone even play Adventures? If yes , what do you think would be better?
Since a while all the proposals on the beta are extremely poor quality, they seem to be made without being thought before, you give feedback for the sake of writing on the forum.
If you feel that way it's ok , maybe before being critical about someones poor quality feedback, you can suggest what can be better.

Also quick question, you only mentioned about dueling bonuses which btw it's not the whole point here , my suggestions are targeting more the Adventurer class , sure I put some changes on other classes too but what I mostly want to succeed is Adventurer. I guess FF suggestions are ok with you? Would you change something? Would you think something is better? Your reply seems to lack quality, no offense .
 

WhyN0t

Master Sergeant
If you feel that way it's ok , maybe before being critical about someones poor quality feedback, you can suggest what can be better.
I already did. What's the point of making more and more poor proposals just for the sake of posting something on the forum? I also proposed much more detailed changes, I came up with comparisons, with formulae, with calculations, not just some bonuses thrown in for fun. I don't necessarily have to post them here, but I did, I assure you.
Adventurers are the least to be dueled. Simply because most of them are without a town or simply because the ratio of the other classes is much higher than Adventurer. Duelers and Soldiers are dueling , Workers are being dueled the most so yeah.
This is nonsense based on absolutely no data, for example on my main world there are more adventurers building churches than workers. And maybe adventurers don't duel as much precisely because they don't have duel bonuses, and soldiers and duelists are OP. This does not mean that things would not change drastically with some common sense balancing.
By Adventure bonus you mean actual Adventure bonus? Does anyone even play Adventures? If yes , what do you think would be better?
This is simply ignorant. Just because you don't play, it doesn't mean that nobody should play a specific gamemode. Yes, there are people who still play adventures and many more would like to play if the veteran shop would be improved. I already proposed many changes in this regard. Using the same logic you could say that no one duels seriously, except for missions, so what's the point of duels or duel bonuses. There are so many worlds without fort battles, so what's the point of fort battles or fort bonuses. In fact, what's the point of this game if it's not populated. Let's just shut down the servers and get on with our lives.
 

BaggyBlue

Master Sergeant
I once made a suggestion. Instead of always having a Fort Fight World Cup, a Duelist World Cup. Was laughed at and mocked and gave up. You can do a duel World Cup. It is only up to the organization to organize the Duelist World Cup.
 

Uchiha Madara

Master Sergeant
What's the point of making more and more poor proposals just for the sake of posting something on the forum?
You really think I'm wasting my time writing something without actually sitting down and thinking about it? I am actually wasting my time playing the game but I will not waste my time to propose something that I personally find that will help. Everyone can suggest anything they want , just because YOU feel that they are poor proposals which they could be doesn't mean they are being thrown without thinking.
I also proposed much more detailed changes, I came up with comparisons, with formulae, with calculations, not just some bonuses thrown in for fun. I don't necessarily have to post them here, but I did, I assure you.
I know you did and good for you , not everyone is good at writing detailed stuff or coming up with formula calculations etc etc Anyone that want to provide some kind of proposal they will do it their own way, I can also assure you that my suggestions is not just for the sake of writing in the forum and they are not "FUN" bonuses. I wasted my time and actually sat down and based on GR worlds which they represent most low player base communities , came up with some viable changes that could work , by all means I am not saying that THIS CHANGES are the changes that needs to be done for the game to be good again , I'm giving changes based on different things. If you want my whole thought process of Adventurer not needing any Dueling bonus and worker having duel bonus I can do that.
This is nonsense based on absolutely no data, for example on my main world there are more adventurers building churches than workers. And maybe adventurers don't duel as much precisely because they don't have duel bonuses, and soldiers and duelists are OP. This does not mean that things would not change drastically with some common sense balancing.
Well , as I said above , this is based on GR servers , Adventurers are not being dueled as much as Worker , do you see whats the difference here? You need actual stats and research ON ALL MARKETS to see what can be good and what not , this is only based on GR.
This is simply ignorant. Just because you don't play, it doesn't mean that nobody should play a specific gamemode. Yes, there are people who still play adventures and many more would like to play if the veteran shop would be improved. I already proposed many changes in this regard. Using the same logic you could say that no one duels seriously, except for missions, so what's the point of duels or duel bonuses. There are so many worlds without fort battles, so what's the point of fort battles or fort bonuses. In fact, what's the point of this game if it's not populated. Let's just shut down the servers and get on with our lives.
You came up with "It doesnt mean that nobody should play a specific gamemode" by me saying that Do people play Adventures? Really? :D I know for a fact that a lot of people play adventures but we all know that Adventure bonuses mean nothing if someone is over 190 level with +3 +4 chef weapons. Even if you go with 50 defense , you still get hit 3k 4k per hit. That's the sole purpose of not giving any bonuses for Adventures.Players will play Adventures if THERE ARE PLAYERS AVAILABLE TO DO SO and not because the veteran shop is bad. Adventures are most common in very active worlds and markets , for example .net , only from Colorado you can find hundreds of players that will want to play , in smaller communities where only 1 world exists that is active and only with 150 players max , Adventures are being played ONLY in events , how can someone play Adventures if there are no players to play with? Maybe we could have a better conversation if when joining an Adventure , you can join with players from other markets. You can actually do that in the current Gold Rush in .net and .ro , you can play from .net with players from .ro , so whats stopping InnoGames to do that? World where no fort battles happen are worlds with bad alliance management OR just world very old that died year after year and newer worlds came up and players felt that have better opportunities and starts. If you naturally bring changes in FF bonuses , players will want to play , if you naturally change bonuses of dueling , players will want to duel , if you randomly add Adventure bonuses that are actually useless , players will want players to do that. You can say the same thing for the other 2 as well but the reality is , FF and Duels will always be more favorable than Adventures, it's harder to get 6 players to play a game rather than finding 40 players to join a battle, let that sink in.

Moral of the story , the game needs A LOT OF WORK , worlds need to merge, worlds need to close , a lot of stuff must change , if not , this class suggestions are just a small portion of a full cab of Hay.
 

WhyN0t

Master Sergeant
Moral of the story , the game needs A LOT OF WORK , worlds need to merge, worlds need to close , a lot of stuff must change , if not , this class suggestions are just a small portion of a full cab of Hay.
Yes, I agree, but worlds closing and migrating is something that has always been and will continue to be, changes to character classes haven't happened for a very long time, that's why I say we have to be very careful about the changes we propose.
 

Emma Swan

Corporal
I think each character should get appropriate bonus for FF and then for area that character is chosen for. I will simplify it for not too much reading.

Adventurer:
In Fort Fights, your aim is increased by 15%. /30%.
In Fort Fights, if alone in sector, your resistance is increased by 50%/100%.
Speed 50%/100%.
Chance to get product increased by 25%.
If you get hurt at work, you earn 50% more money.

Duelist: no dueling from distance.
In Fort Fights, you have chance 4%/8% for crit rate. Your chance to crit is 10%/20% if on your own tower.
Your speed on map is increased by 25%/50%.
Your dodge is incread by 10%/20% during duel.
Your dueling level grows 25%/50% slower.

Builder:
Experience from jobs, duels, FF and town building 10%/20%.
If attacked while building in town, your HP is increased by 100%/200%,
In Fort Fights, your dodging and aiming is increased by 20%/40%. You will get additional 10% extra bonus if alone in secotr.
In Fort Fights, your soldier neighbour gets 10%/20% bonus from your setting traps/hiding.

Soldier:
Your regeneration is increased by 30%/60%.
HP the same
In Fort Fight, your leadership is increased by 35%/70% for you and your neighbours.
In Fort Fights, your waepon dmg is increased by 20-40 / 40-80. This bonus can be combines with other buff for dmg.
In duels, your aim gets 10%/20% increased if attacked.


But this game needs more changes:
Resistance must be brought back
New formula needed after character changes anyway
New crafting and all crafting buffs must be inovated giving higher bonuses
Introducing old sets in union shop for new players that missed event
NPC Fort Fights for quests and achievements
New clothers for collectors with higher bonuses, we are playing with years old clothers from town shops.
Experiences based on your level.

thats my opinion on character changes. If something goes wrong there is always possibility to make small changes for each of them.
 

Uchiha Madara

Master Sergeant
Yes, I agree, but worlds closing and migrating is something that has always been and will continue to be, changes to character classes haven't happened for a very long time, that's why I say we have to be very careful about the changes we propose.
Of course , if we all propose things related to local markets and InnoGames has a lot of information from all markets , then I think it will much easier for them to decide , of course changes that are related only for small markets will not be applied for all markets , a lot of things have to be decided from all our suggestions so they can continue. Always remember that they will not take a few suggestions from beta forum and make it a reality , that will never happen as much as this is a beta forum , they need massive information from ALL markets , ALL forums , that's why I was saying and I will keep saying , InnoGames should ask ALL markets for their players to suggest possible changes for classes , they can accumulate all suggestions then make a feedback thread of all suggested changes ( not literally every single suggestion ) I mean if X suggestions is similar to Y suggestion then that becomes 1 suggestion , I hope you understand me. We as beta players "feedback givers* "suggestion givers* can only provide feedback or suggestions for EVENTS and sometimes sets. Game related stuff like class changes/fort battle changes/duel changes should be talked in ALL FORUMS , period.
 
This is a useless thread it will only make us players fight each other while the devs laugh their asses off... If they plan to make class changes they should announce it and ask for players opinions
 

Uchiha Madara

Master Sergeant
In duels, your aim gets 10%/20% increased if attacked.
I have complicated feelings about this , isnt this a bit the same as having tactics bonus? If that soldier has over 1500 aim which is possible with todays sets , then with 20% he almost has 2k aim , you will need a lot of dodge to be able to face that and lets say that soldier also has over 800-1k tactics then it will be very very hard. But this is coming from a noob dueler so I think @WhyN0t is more qualified for this.
 

WhyN0t

Master Sergeant
Keep it simple, difficult and risky changes won't be implemented, not in this era of the game.

I have complicated feelings about this , isnt this a bit the same as having tactics bonus?
Yeah, it's similar, in a way it's better, because you can still break the tactics, in another way it's worse, because the bonus is permanent, even if you manage to break the tactics. I think it would be much easier to just drop the duel bonuses, let's face it, it's too hard to add balanced bonuses. Keep the duelist's range duels, keep the soldier's double HP, but get rid of the soldier's tactical bonus and replace it with something else. Remove the adventurer's current fort bonus, add a new one, and that's it for the beggining. After these small changes, more can follow.
 

the legit

Private First Class
This is a repost of my previously suggested changes with a few tweaks...


Adventurer:
The chance to find a product when working a job is increased by 10%. 20%
The chance to find an item during work is increased by 10%. 20%
You can use hotels in foreign towns for free until level 2. You can use the hotel without being at a town.
The chance to get hurt while working a job is lowered by 10%.
Being in a sector alone increases your aim and dodge by 40% , If your health points get reduced to 10% your dodge chance doubles to 80% but you lose 2% HP every round for the next 5 rounds.
Reduce aim and dodge chance of neighbor sectors by 20%. This also affects your team.

I like the proposed work buffs in general.
Regarding the FF while I strongly agree in the sentiment of buffing Adventurer class, I feel like the proposed change might be difficult to implement, I like the standalone sector buff I do not like the negatively being able to impact your team, people just gonna hate Adventurers and it can also be used to troll.

Dueler:
The speed on the map is increased by 10%. 25%
The motivation for dueling raises faster. It is increased 40% faster. In duels you receive a bonus of 20% to your appearance skill.
You receive 10% more money in a duel. You receive 10% more money from jobs,duels and fort battles.
In fort battles, you have the chance of 10%(7%) to score a critical hit. Critical hits deduct an additional 10% of the maximum hit points.
You can perform duels within a radius of 15 minutes without traveling there.
Your battle hardened instincts allow you to see which skills and weapon your opponent wield in the duel menu.

I like all those proposed changes.
One thing to be noted, by increasing speed in the map and also keeping the radius of 15 min without travelling, you're basically getting close to full map duel without needing to move.
I honestly think, due to the ever increasing speed around the map, if anything, nerfing the travel radius could be considered.

20% appearance might be too much though, I'd be happy with 5/10 or 7.5/15. This is assuming soldier tactics get nerfed too, which I believe is fair.

Soldier:
For each skill point given to the skill health points you receive an additional 5 3 health points for your character.
The level needed to use a weapon is lowered by 3 levels. ( I find this kinda useless but I don't really know what to replace it with )
In duels you receive a bonus of 25% 15% to your tactic skill.
In fort battles, you increase the leadership skill for you and your four neighbors by 25% 40% of your own leadership skill.
Your battle hardened instincts allow you to see which skills and weapon your opponent wield in the duel menu.

Strongly against nerfing soldiers HP. Not going to dwelve into why as I have in other topics and discussions but I think that generally its better to avoid nerfing and just bring other classes up to par. I rather you suggest a buff to other classes damage if that is what you believe, even though I would also disagree, at least I'd believe its a better way to go about it, in raising floor instead of lowering ceilling.

I agree with the tactics nerf

Leadership buff I feel is unnecessary

If that's the case, seeing the skills in duel at this point should just be enable for everyone since there's script that already do that anyway.

Worker:
The earned experience points for a job are increased by 5%.10%
You pay 2% less banking fees.
When constructing buildings in town you receive a bonus of 5% 15% to your labor points.
The motivation to construct buildings in town rises by 10% 25% faster.
In fort battles, your aiming and dodging are boosted by 20%.
While building, get a bonus of 25% on toughness and reflex.

I don't think the experience buff should be doubled, I think its already quite valuable.

The other changes I can get behind of.

Even just a passive (since duelers would have appearance, and soldiers tactics) of like 5/10% toughness and/or reflex for duels could be interesting.
Like give adventureres the toughness and give workers the reflex and so everyone has a duel char buff. Or give soldiers the hardened buff in both toughness and reflex and give adventureres like a 10% duel dodge value type.
Like so:
Soldiers = tactics buff
Duellers = appearance buff
Workers = reflex/toughness buff
Adventurer = dodge buff


I strongly agree that every class should have their FF bonus but the most love right now must go to Adventurer so even if nothing will change for other classes regarding FF bonuses , Adventurer is a MUST and needs the most attention.

Strongly agree in Adventurer class being shown the most love. Not sure about how exactly, imo giving adventurer class an innate resistance buff would be nice since:

soldiers have hp
workers have aim/dodge
duellers have damage

The missing ingredient IMO is RESISTANCE, some people like resistance builds so would give a reason to pick the class.

Either give the class a flat bonus like 125/250
or
For the first 5 shots taken in a round adventurer cannot take over 1000 damage per regular shot.


So everyone gets duel bonuses except adventurers? And they don't event get an adventure bonus. What a joke.

I agree, I think every class could have a reason to be chosen either for FFs or Duels.
 

BaggyBlue

Master Sergeant
I have to contradict you. Beta is not just a test server. You can also make suggestions on beta. That's what beta is for. And in the beta almost the whole world plays. From A – Z not just the international server

And that for class improvement is a good idea. Give us suggestions to vote and advise. :up:
 
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