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New Duelling System - Proposal

mfs007

Reservist
Hello cowboys and cowgirls,

As you can tell from the topic, this is a thread to talk about an update for the experience gained from duelling, just like it has recently been done for the fort fights. To give some context, I started this game because of its PVP, but with the latest updates it has become a Player versus Church simulator:
-6k XP/H
-Low buff consuming (1 chewing tobacco every 9h of work)
-No hp loss from it.

To be a church builder you only need to selfKO every 72H, so this would give 475K XP (72x6.6); which speeds up levelling incredibly fast. This is awesome but there is no fun from the PvP. Now, developers have worked out new jobs for experience that aren’t as good if you don’t spam 15s all day, a new experience system for the fort fights which was much needed but there is just 1 fort fight everyday (if any). Another feature that could use an update for experience gaining is duels.

Main ideas

  • Duel level will just be an uncapped show off, won’t affect XP nor duel targets.
  • Duel experience will be based on the amount of experience required for next level. (Formula below)
  • Player level will affect the exp you get. If the enemy is higher you get more, if lower less.
  • Introducing duel rating, a new way of measuring the ‘real’ duel level (from 0-10, explained below), will be used to add or reduce the experience you get from the duel.
  • Introducing duelling seasons, for example every big event; Easter, Summer and Christmas. Duel rating resets each season.

Duel rating​

This new system goes from 0 to 10, it can only be gained or lost by duelling.
The Duel Rating will be shown just below the duel level on profiles. It will be rounded down, only showing to 1 decimal place.
  • From -0.5 to +1.4 above your own rating you gain 0.2. From 1.5 and above you gain 0.3, which is the highest increase possible. If the opponent is -0.6 below to -1.4 your own duel rating, you gain a max of 0.1 duel rating, if its below -1.5 you win 0.01
  • From people with duel rating = 0 you will NOT gain any rating.
  • KO has an extra 0.2 bonus to those 0.5 below you and up, to reward dominant victories. You will gain nothing if they are 0.6 below you, or 0 rated.
  • Whatever amount of rating is won, the loser loses.
  • This duel rating system will be an actual competitive ranking based on duels on & lost, compared to the duel level system that is not only a bad representation of skill, it also does nothing to protect non duellers as there are many ways to manipulate your duel level to keep duelling those far below your level, or those that don't duel at all. The competitiveness from duel rating will massively encourage people to duel again and reward duelling duellers of similar level and higher rating while duelling low rating / low level is pointless and a waste of time for duel XP, XP & Rating.

Duelling level punishes duellers, let's change it​

  • Duel level is currently a bad indicator of skill / bragging rights as it's based on "current" duel XP, not an actual reflection of your total XP like you see in the leader boards. Most duellers lower their duel level deliberately, or it lowers over time using this "current" duel XP system making the duel level itself mostly ineffective.
  • Duel level should be a reflection of TOTAL XP as it is in the leader boards, purely bragging rights.
  • Duel Level XP calculation stays the same.
  • Duelling level will no longer determine duelling range. Duellers will no longer be punished for being good and thus lowering the amount of people they can duel.

Level difference influences targets​

  • Up until level 150 you can duel anyone within 15 levels of your own. (Currently a 168 could duel a 120.)
  • For level 149 and below the XP calculations remain the same.
  • At level 150, you can duel up to 250 and vice versa.
  • Currently there's VERY few people past level 200, and less (if any) above 210. The system as it is now allows a level 210 to attack a level 150. So this change will make very little difference for years to come. The player base for most worlds is too small to restrict high level duellers to similar levels as it takes so long to reach these new levels only a few will reach.

Level difference influences XP​

  • If your enemy is higher level you will get a positive bonus on gained XP.
  • If your enemy is lower level you will get a negative bonus on gained XP.

Normal examples​

Maths TLDR: Gain more XP if your opponent is higher level, gain less if your opponent is lower level. Duel rating heavily influences achievable XP, making non-duellers an unattractive target.

!!! The duel formula below would only apply for lvl150 and above. !!!

Formula: 0.10% x XP for next level x (1 + (Loser Level-Winner Level)/100) x ( Duel Rating Winner x (Duel Rating Loser/10)
  • Example 1
    Player 1: level 170 duel rating 1, experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5 mil
    Player 2: level 170 duel rating 1, experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5 mil

    Player 1 wins the duel, gained XP: 0,10% of 5 M = 5k lvl difference = 0/100 x 0,1%5M= 0 duel rating =1 -> 5k x 1 = 5k enemies duel rating/100= 0,1 -> 5k x 0,1=500

    Total gain:500XP

  • Example 2
    Player 1: level 170 duel rating 5 experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5 mil
    Player 2: level 170 duel rating 1, experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5mil

    Player 1 wins the duel, gained XP: 0,10% of 5 M = 5k lvl difference = 0/100 x 0,1%5M= 0 duel rating =5 -> 5k x 5 = 25k enemies duel rating/100= 0,1 -> 25k x 0,1 =2500 exp

    Total gain: 2500XP

  • Example 3
    Player 1: level 170 duel rating 5 experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5 mil
    Player 2: level 170 duel rating 5, experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5mil

    Player 1 wins the duel, experience will be : 0,10% of 5 M = 5k lvl difference = 0/100 x 0,1%5M= 0 duel rating =5 enemies duel rating/100= 0,5

    Total gain: 12500XP

  • Example 4
    Player 1: level 170 duel rating 10 experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5 mil
    Player 2: level 170 duel rating 5, experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5mill

    Player 1 wins the duel, experience will be : 0,10% of 5 M = 5k lvl difference = 0/100 x 0,1%5M= 0 duel rating =10 enemies duel rating/100= 0,5

    Total gain: 25000XP

  • Example 5
    Player 1: level 170 duel rating 10 experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5 mil
    Player 2: level 170 duel rating 10 experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5mil

    Player 1 wins the duel, experience will be : 0,10% of 5 M = 5k lvl difference = 0/100 x 0,1%5M= 0 duel rating =10 enemies duel rating/100= 1

    Total gain: 50000XP

Extreme examples​

  • Example 6
    Player 1: level 169 duel rating 10 experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5 mil
    Player 2: level 249 duel rating 10, experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5mil

    Player 1 wins the duel, experience will be : 0,10% of 5 M = 5k lvl difference = 80/100 x 0,1%5M= 4000 -> 9000 duel rating =10 -> 90000 enemies duel rating/100= 1

    Total gain: 90000XP
    This scenario is assuming you are able to beat someone with 80 lvls on you who is a real dueller, if he's worker and has duel rating 0, you will get 0 exp.

  • Example 7
    Player 1: level 249 duel rating 10 experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5 mil
    Player 2: level 169 duel rating 10, experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5mil

    Player 1 wins the duel, experience will be : 0,10% of 50 M = 50k lvl difference = -80/100 x 0,1%5M= -40k ->10k duel rating =10 k enemies duel rating/100= 1
    Total gain: 100K XP

Pros

  • More active duels since they will give very high experience if you work for it. Achieving and maintaining duel rank 10 is very hard, but gives great bonuses.
  • Workers will be left alone by duellers since they will not give any XP in comparison to duelling duellers.
  • Gives players another viable option for XP grinding besides church and 15s, which both are without any interaction with the game and community. PvP>PvE.
  • Duellers will no longer be punished by not having any targets to duel if their duel level is too high, since it simply removes this obstruction.
  • Seasonal resets keep the system fresh creating endless content.
  • More accurate/less manipulatable leader board to properly reflect duel XP gained.

Cons​

  • It won’t change anything unless it motivates people.
  • It would require additional PvE balance for different classes so soldier isn't the uncontested king of duels.

Finishing note​

Duelling has a lot of problems and generally isn't that fun for either party and the system is fundamentally flawed, this idea is to hopefully cater to each type of player. Non-duellers will be less affected by duellers, lower levels will be safer, and those that do not duel regularly will overall be less penalised by the occasional duel while duellers themselves will have a much more interactive and rewarding experience that regularly resets keeping things fresh.

This solution isn't without its faults and any constructive feedback would be greatly appreciated, the more this is refined the higher the chance of it being implemented is.
 
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WhyN0t

Master Sergeant
To be a church builder you only need to selfKO every 72H, so this would give 720K XP (72x10); which speeds up levelling incredibly fast
You can't get constantly 10k xp per hour. I get an average of 6631 xp with a lvl 592 church and this is available only for 100% motivation, if you only use a tobbaco once in 9 hours, you'll get ~15% less xp. So ~5636 xp per hour. Is not that much, you don't get any money (you actually lose some) and get 0 products. It speeds up leveling up only if you're low level, it is extremely difficult to make ~10kk xp (equivalent of 1 level) from building the church. You grow faster from daily logs. But I understand what you're saying. You are right, people farm products or build the church and completely ignore the pvp because they have no reason to do it. They have to invest a lot in items and learn to play, which is complicated, especially when the prizes are embarrassing. I do it for fun, but not everyone is like that. I will continue to read your proposal regarding pvp, but now I can't. I will come back with an edit.
 

mfs007

Reservist
You can't get constantly 10k xp per hour. I get an average of 6631 xp with a lvl 592 church and this is available only for 100% motivation, if you only use a tobbaco once in 9 hours, you'll get ~15% less xp. So ~5636 xp per hour. Is not that much, you don't get any money (you actually lose some) and get 0 products. It speeds up leveling up only if you're low level, it is extremely difficult to make ~10kk xp (equivalent of 1 level) from building the church. You grow faster from daily logs. But I understand what you're saying. You are right, people farm products or build the church and completely ignore the pvp because they have no reason to do it. They have to invest a lot in items and learn to play, which is complicated, especially when the prizes are embarrassing. I do it for fun, but not everyone is like that. I will continue to read your proposal regarding pvp, but now I can't. I will come back with an edit.
Agreed, just changed numbers on the post. As you can see we wanna make this work and we take all the feedback into consideration to adjust it.

We know formula aint perfect and thats why its posted here, to get some feedback, make adjustments and hopefully make it work someday.
 

dublik

Lance Corporal
Example 1
Player 1: level 170 duel rating 1, experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5 mil
Player 2: level 170 duel rating 1, experience needed from lvl 170 to 171 = 5 mil

Player 1 wins the duel, gained XP: 0,10% of 5 M = 5k lvl difference = 0/100 x 0,1%5M= 0 duel rating =1 -> 5k x 1 = 5k enemies duel rating/100= 0,1 -> 5k x 0,1=500

Total gain:500XP
If i tested your formula correctly, then its giving me 50k xp as a total gain instead of 500xp

0.1 * 5000000 * (1+(170-170) / 100) * (1*(1 / 10)) = 50000

Of course if by '0.10%' you mean 0.001 of xp to next level then it is correct

Edit:
But then you run into a problem, that is rewarding PvP more than PvE and since this game has them both, and there are players enjoying PvE as much as PvP, you might have to buff jobs xp, xp from quests and so on. Same as with FF's. You cant be giving out 50k xp per duel when in those same 10 minutes its impossible to farm the same amount of xp by spamming 15s jobs.
Just my perspective on this.
 
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DeletedUser500

Guest
But then you run into a problem, that is rewarding PvP more than PvE and since this game has them both, and there are players enjoying PvE as much as PvP, you might have to buff jobs xp, xp from quests and so on. Same as with FF's. You cant be giving out 50k xp per duel when in those same 10 minutes its impossible to farm the same amount of xp by spamming 15s jobs.
Just my perspective on this.
Yeah lots of people saying that PvE exp needs a massive update after the level-cap stuff too, it will take some time but hopefully all aspects of the game get the needed updates (that probably should have been in place before the level cap was raised on non-Beta worlds) eventually.
 

WhyN0t

Master Sergeant
This whole complicated idea of yours ignores one very important thing. Nobody cares about xp earned from duels :))
Nor does it seem to solve the problem of those who attack with the bible intentionally lowering level for more targets. People are either attacking to finish those silly achievements, to get revenge or for pleasure. You also omit the fact that many highly rated players will probably be hunted in work/attack clothes and it's not exactly pleasant.
Nevertheless, it is an interesting idea, I'm not sure yet if it will fix some issues, but it would be great to test something like this on beta or another test server However, I think it should start with hard reset for the duel level.
There would be another downside. Soldiers are pretty much impossible to beat on defense if they know how to play, and people probably wouldn't let themselves be duelable when they're offline because they wouldn't want to lose their ranking. Plus it would encourage abusive reskill. Xp earned against someone of high rank I think is too high, and this feature can be abused, and players will donate xp to each other. They don't need to play without a gun or bible, if they know how to play, they will put items so one of them is guaranteed to win. That would be another problem.

Edit: I hope I'm not misunderstood, I like the idea and think it should be tested before being implemented. It may be one of the solutions to save duels, but it seems quite complicated and I don't know if the developer would be able to implement something like this soon enough. There have been much simpler proposals ignored.
 
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FreeHugs

Lance Corporal
A lot of the problems I see mentioned are problems with the game, not the idea. A fix all cannot be created by the players, only an update to remedy a broken system.

I think the XP formula is a bit too strong and needs work though the changes would create loads of new content / interaction.

If you think of it, duel rating itself is a limited resource, there will only be a few duellers to a world and they will fast reach a rating that gains nothing from duelling low rated duellers. While beating those of similar or higher rating will not be easy. Also, if you duel and there is decent competition you'll find it extremely expensive, for the right gear & buffs. This doesn't mean the XP rewards as they are now are completely balanced but it's not as simple as duelling 6 times an hour and getting a trillion XP.

If the formula was just a little finer tuned I think it'd be good, nothing changes the terrible code that's behind duels or how soldiers are overpowered for defense, how resist is very strong right but the purpose is to improve what we have and revitalise a pretty bad mechanic, not make a new game that's actually good (full offense @InnoGames).
 
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FreeHugs

Lance Corporal
Can we bring this thread back? but we dont need the xp calc anymore as they just doubled XP from duels, just the bonus from the duel rating...

This would solve the remaining issues of duel level making it hard to duel consistantly & massively incentivise duelling duellers and avoiding workers / lower levels.
 
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