Worker is the worst class - CHANGE MY MIND!

[roland jacobs]

need 50 hits to die and dodge 70 shots, dealing 15k damage, being 2 level higher, and nothing more?
or
need 100 hits do die and dodge 50 shots, dealing 10k damage, being 2 level lower, with more 50% tactics, and leadership bonus (which is not entering in the ff calc)?

those 20 dodges difference held a tower for another 5 rounds. I choose that one.

 

[Uchiha Madara]

I can't believe I am back to feed the troll

[17:53] BigNoob:

hello

[17:57] ULamo:

Hi

17:57] BigNoob:

you have a worker character and an adventurer character, what do you think about them?

[17:57] ULamo:

adventurer - sucks

[17:58] ULamo:

When I returned to the game 18 month ago I thought I will do only jobs and quests. So I chose it. Now I regret)

[18:02] BigNoob:

and what about worker then?

[18:05] ULamo:

Only when you start a new world and don't have any sets, worker is worse than advent. After obtaining any set like Xochi - all advantages of advents disappear and worker is better.

[18:06] ULamo:

For FFs workers are imbalanced. But it works the best on full FFs

[18:07] BigNoob:

i dont really agree with some of what you said but I will share it without changing it


he plays 2 worlds, 1 as adventurer the other as worker, he (and every player with a brain) can tell worker is better. I want @Uchiha Madara to come here and tell us that he will give up on his worker class bonus on his level 217 worker character to reclass it to adventurer.

The truth is simple, adventurers would WELCOME WITH GREAT HAPPINESS an opportunity to reclass to worker (they would probably prefer soldier or dueler). Workers would NEVER reclass to adventurer

You wrote so much yet you didnt really prove anything.

Only when you start a new world and don't have any sets, worker is worse than advent. After obtaining any set like Xochi - all advantages of advents disappear and worker is better. Wrong, the advantage of Adventurer becomes even stronger because of sets like Xochi. This is what we have been saying all this time but for some reason you refuse to understand it.


Of course I would still choose Worker because he is better at FF, no question about it. This not the case though.

 

[BaggyBlue]

Let's do it this way. Who benefits and who gets left behind without cities?

A world without cities. There's only the InnoGame city, nothing else, and yes, Fort Awesomia.

The one who gets left behind is the duelist, since they can never duel. Their only advantage is the Awesomia battle. Nothing more. So what's the point of the bonuses without a city?

The one who benefits the most is the Abbot, since they don't need their own city.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of workers and soldiers without a city?

Many quests remain unobtainable. Many achievements are the same.

Yes, you can sell goods in the InnoGame city in the east, since the cities also have a market.

Not every day is a player duel. Not almost every day is a fort battle. Only when the moderator, game master, or community manager calls for an Awesomia battle.

So the bonuses aren't that valuable without a city?

 

[thenootz55]

TL,DR: I agree that Adventurer needs to be reworked.

I see that people keep arguing about Worker vs Adventurer and their bonuses, but you're looking at things wrong, timeline wise.

You split the lifecycle of a world in 3 phases:
- Early game (when the world is just launched and people are all starting anew)
- Mid game (think of it when level 150+ starts kicking in and you have a lot of sets available - usually around Xmas sale)
- Late game (180+ levels and so on) --- older worlds are here on all markets.

If you take the Worker:
- XP bonus, it is very valuable early game, because when everyone is low level and there is no XP gear around, that bonus helps you a lot. Same with the one for money deposit. Workers will level up faster at these stage. And since the world is new, no money gear, every penny counts, especially when you've been farming all day and you have maybe a few hundred thousand dollars on you.
- Mid game, when sets come out, worker XP bonus diminishes and it's not valuable anymore. But at this point, you'd have solid Fort gear and your Fort bonus kicks in. It works also on lower levels, but without proper gear it's not that powerful.
- Late game it's only the FF bonus that works well. The others are offset by high level gear on other classes.

Take adventurer:
- Drop and luck percentage helps you early game, no doubt. Same reasoning as for worker - no sets or high level gear. At fort fights, you actually make a difference at low levels (WHEN EVERYONE IS LOW LEVEL) since this is where you fight on unbuilt forts and most people are online, so there is high degree of coordination ongoing.
- Mid game you can still sort of use your ghosting sometimes, but with people having proper sets and higher levels, it stops being that useful. Here, your drop percentage and luck percentage can be boosting your gear, but it just isn't enough, because you won't be farming all the time, no?
- Late game, you bring nothing to the table. At fort fights, everyone is usually offline (or at least 70% of the players) since we're talking about old worlds. Gear is high level, so your drop/luck bonus doesn't make you stand out - everyone would have saved quite a lot of money over the years anyway.

So, yeah, Adventurer sucks because it's relatively good early game, and that's about it. You simply don't scale up the later the game goes. Workers are strong early game in PvE (XP grinding), allowing for faster level up. Mid game and late game they can be good tanks or damagers depending on the choice they make. But still relevant.

PvE diminishes for ALL classes in mid to late game due to the sets that are available. On paper, 250% vs 270% drop rate (or luck, money, XP) looks good, but in practice it doesn't offer that much.

Note that both classes lack a character bonus in duels. Hence the comparison is fair since both offer FF bonuses and PvE bonuses only.

 

[Test acc]

On paper, 250% vs 270% drop rate

Would be 250% vs 300%, its literally what we are talking here, yall seems to not be reading anything, one bonus is multiplicative and other dont, meanwhile both have same text on classes description, however the exp is only 10% more if everyone is naked and the more exp you have less the impact of that skill is, meanwhile the 20% luck and drop, is 20% more forever, in both skills and the more luck or drop you have higher the impact of both skill is.

we are talkning about exp, a feature that has end, it ends at level 250, the current way exp bonus works, isnt suficient to really have a diference, depending the % exp you have in clothes, not being a worker you would reach level 250 soon after, not exactly as it should be 10% time after, if you have 400% exp on gear, and as a worker (410% exp), suposing the worker reach level 250 in 3000 days, you would reach in 3075 days the same level if not worker, thats literally insignificant, however the amount of products and money you can held are infinite, so if we keep doing forever the money or products grind, look at this graph:

exp (in green worker, in purple not worker):

< if real 10%, or completely naked

< if using 400% on exp gear

meanwhile the money from luck chance and amount of products...

Spoiler

---

although exp has more value itself, the current way the worker exp skill works makes no significant impact to justify choose the class, and i can say the same about the dodge/hit chance, isnt strong enough to compete agains soldiers hp, then whats left to a worker? nothing, literally nothing, thats why i would prefer playing adventurer than worker (cuz if i want to battle would prefer soldier or dueler, so adventurer is the smartest choice if you dont want to do fort fights, even being more crucial than worker in ff), cuz they have way more impact (not talking about only ff), however between, soldier, dueller adventurer and worker, the only smart choices nowadays are dueler and soldier... that shows how bad is the situation for workers, which explain being the least chosen class, meanwhile adventurer were already supose to be the weakest one in fort fight or the diferent one, of course if we compare in fort fights worker vs adventurers, worker will perfomr better, however like i said before, we cant compare them... there are 3 roles to play nowadays in fort fights, tanks, damagers and ghost...

Of course I would still choose Worker because he is better at FF, no question about it. This not the case though.

using the example someone said earlier, if we have 60 duelers, 60 soldiers, 8 workers and 8 adventurers in a fort fight, these 8 adventurers are still crucial, however these 8 workers would-could-should be easily substituted for 4 duelers and 4 soldiers that would perform better in theory (of course it has the RNG). which means:

those 20 dodges difference held a tower for another 5 rounds. I choose that one.

that this would be a very stupid choice, cuz literally worker only have the fort fight skill. (also, would be not 5 rounds more, would be 0)

So, yeah, Adventurer sucks because it's relatively good early game

it is useless early game

allowing for faster level up.

insignificant diference from a feature that has END

 

[thenootz55]

insignificant diference from a feature that has END

Because, again, you look at everything at the end game... talking about level 250, for example. yes, as I said, once sets and XP gear come into picture, that bonus is not that great anymore.

but, at the early stages of a new world, an active worker will earn faster XP and will level up faster. Sure, to lvl 140 or so, but on a new world, that is quite high.

Stop thinking that all bonuses should be relevant at all levels, that was my point. Soldiers weapons bonus, for example. Useless nowadays completely, yet no one cries about it.

The FF bonus workers have, as I said, gets better with better gear and level, so it's a scaling bonus that makes the class relevant later on.

As I said, Adventurer is the only class not having that kind of mechanic on PvP , like the other classes. So that needs to be changed, ghosting is situational useful early game and that's about it.

I don't really know what the X axis is meant to be for the luck graph, but if that is the number of products that need to be selling, you're again using late game values only. 25000 dropped items sold - do you know how many jobs that takes? Do you honestly believe people achieve that many 15 sec jobs in a relatively small amount of time without bots or scripts? Of course not. That graph is relevant for a few handful of people that have long standing Adventurer characters as main, for everyone else the difference is not that big.

My point is that you can't design a character class thinking only about what works late game. New worlds are launched every year, where everyone starts from scratch. Then there are 1-2 year old worlds that are in the mid game phase and you need to think about those as well. If you just look at only the top 20 players, it won't work.

Oh, and there is another role you can play in fort fights, apart from damager, tank, GHOST. It's the SUPPORT role where you buff the others on your sector. Sure, you don't need that many, especially when attacking - but this is a whole other discussion

 

[Test acc]

Because, again, you look at everything at the end game... talking about level 250, for example. yes, as I said, once sets and XP gear come into picture, that bonus is not that great anymore.

but, at the early stages of a new world, an active worker will earn faster XP and will level up faster. Sure, to lvl 140 or so, but on a new world, that is quite high.

thats not important, like i showed in previous graph...

The FF bonus workers have, as I said, gets better with better gear and level, so it's a scaling bonus that makes the class relevant later on.

formula has a cap that makes less eficient (^0.5 and the ^0,6), so even being 40% more bonuses, it is less eficient than the 100% more hp, even more due to hp not being capped, if this keeps this way will only have soldiers and duelers in battles soon, cuz the only way to deal with the more hp is by crits, is very simple math:
soldier target (Vaggosr21)

I don't really know what the X axis is meant to be for the luck graph, but if that is the number of products that need to be selling, you're again using late game values only. 25000 dropped items sold - do you know how many jobs that takes? Do you honestly believe people achieve that many 15 sec jobs in a relatively small amount of time without bots or scripts? Of course not. That graph is relevant for a few handful of people that have long standing Adventurer characters as main, for everyone else the difference is not that big.

its literal 20% more, if you get 5 items, adventurer get 6, if you get 500 items, adventurer get 600, if you get 5kk items and adventurer get 6kk, as simple as that.

 

[Guiri]

i read everything to answer everything, if you cant read then ask gpt to make a resume to you...

we are talkning about exp, a feature that has end, it ends at level 250, the current way exp bonus works, isnt suficient to really have a diference, depending the % exp i have in clothes, i not being a worker i would reach level 250 soon after, not exactly as it should be 10% time after, if i have 400exp, and as a worker (410% exp) reach level 250 in 3000 days, i would reach in 3075 days the same level if not worker, thats literally insignificant, however the amount of products and money you can helt are infinite, so if we keep doing forever the money or products grind, look at this graph:

exp (in green worker, in purple not working):

Spoiler

View attachment 4233 < if real 10%, or completely naked

Spoiler

View attachment 4234 <using 400% on exp gear

meanwhile the money from luck chance and amount of products...

Spoiler

View attachment 4236

in purple is an adventurer amount of products and money from luck goods sold, in green a non adventurer, and as you can see it keeps growing faster and infinetly, lets say if you need anspecific amount of $ or products, you will basically get it 20% faster or in the same amount of time wil get 20% more!




no one has ever said that the hotel bonus is better than 10% flat exp, repearing myself the 10% exp is too weak to be realy an advantage, which to me is half the answer why workers are the least chosen class as i and @Uchiha Madara already proved more than once.


hell no, workers have nothing to do jobs, nothing to duel, the advantage should be the level, but it isnt cuz is 10% FLAT, and the only good skill isnt strong enough to compete against half a soldier have.

i literally said that in the first post where i compared classes (not in that thread, if i find i post here), the text is same, but works diferent, or the text is wrong, or since the class bonus exist one of those are working wrong, or not well explained.

all the newer buffs that have 1000% something, adventurer receive 1200% from them (except exp one), manwhile the 1000% exp does not give 1100% to a worker...

yes, cuz they also have duels skills...

with dailiy login you get 5 levels in 250 days, dont need to click to reach same level, and after?

thats insignificant, even more when you are not in WT

which is better?

need 50 hits to die and dodge 70 shots, dealing 15k damage, being 2 level higher, and nothing more?
or
need 100 hits do die and dodge 50 shots, dealing 10k damage, being 2 level lower, with more 50% tactics, and leadership bonus (which is not entering in the ff calc)?


ye, im using facts and math to prove my point and they are using opinions... just like nowadays.

seems like my point went a bit above your head. you are showing graphs but not what my intention was to show. I was more focusing on that a real 10% would be too much of an advantage. that it only goes to 250 is not that relevant imo. who knows how many players will be left when we get there. they could easily increase it to 300.

also about hitting more, well it is a benefit for your team, you might kill a player instead of giving him a change to swap. also you get more bonds and fort battle points.

also you might have points in what you are saying, but the way you are saying it is not correct. please try to be a bit more humble

 

[Test acc]

I was more focusing on that a real 10% would be too much of an advantage

we are talking about two different things.

My point wasn't that a real 10% XP bonus would suddenly make Worker overpowered. My point is that the current implementation is so weak that it barely represents an actual class advantage.

Let's look at the numbers.

With the current system, the effective difference for a player with modern XP gear is around 3% (with 400% gear exp). If you remove roughly 3% of the total XP required for level 250, you end up around level 248.

If the bonus actually worked as the class description suggests, a real 10% increase, if you remove about 10% of the XP required for level 250, which corresponds to approximately level 245.

So we're not comparing level 250 versus level 220 or anything remotely game-breaking. We're talking about 250 versus 245. In a progression system that has a hard cap, that is still a relatively small difference, and once you reach level 250 the advantage completely disappears, unless they increase the maximum level, which maybe in 10 years that happen. That's why I don't see a real multiplicative 10% as excessive.

Regarding Fort Battles, I agree that more hits and more dodges help your team. I never said they don't. My point is that those bonuses are simply less impactful than the Soldier's HP bonus.

The reason is mathematical. Hit and dodge are both limited by the battle formulas (the ^0.5 and ^0.6 scaling), so their effectiveness has diminishing returns. HP, however, is not capped by those formulas. As HP keeps increasing, surviving becomes increasingly valuable, which is exactly why Duelers rely so heavily on critical hits (20% chance to deal 10% of the target's maximum HP). We've already reached the stage where critical hits are essential because HP values have grown so much.

That is also why Workers have gradually become the least chosen class. Their class bonuses either scale poorly (XP), are constrained by diminishing-return formulas (hit/dodge), or are outperformed by the more specialized classes. Soldiers remain the best tanks, Duelers remain the best damage dealers, Adventurers keep their unique ghosting role, while Workers end up with bonuses that no longer provide a compelling reason to choose the class.

And finally, I appreciate the feedback about my wording. My intention is to discuss the mechanics and the numbers, not to dismiss anyone's opinion. If some of my replies sounded too blunt, that wasn't my intention.

 

[sombrero]

I can just say you are a retard if you take 10% of total xp of level 250, it doesnt work like that because you dont start with max xp, you start on level1, so this 10% bonus will play completely different. Do you need a drawing since you iq is very small?
That image speaks for itself. If you want to see it there's the link https://www.westforts.com/br1/battles/battle/37480
Everyone on this battles is either tank or full leadership.

 

[Uchiha Madara]

I can just say you are a retard if you take 10% of total xp of level 250, it doesnt work like that because you dont start with max xp, you start on level1, so this 10% bonus will play completely different. Do you need a drawing since you iq is very small?
That image speaks for itself. If you want to see it there's the link https://www.westforts.com/br1/battles/battle/37480
Everyone on this battles is either tank or full leadership.

You can explain like a normal human being. Why do you feel you have the right to call anyone retarded and with low iq? You calling those names have lower iq. You didnt even prove anything with the image you attached. You just blah blah and call names because you have nothing better to say or provide. Next time if you want to feel smarter, start without insulting others and be more respectful. You talk to strangers not your family members.

 

[sombrero]

You can explain like a normal human being. Why do you feel you have the right to call anyone retarded and with low iq? You calling those names have lower iq. You didnt even prove anything with the image you attached. You just blah blah and call names because you have nothing better to say or provide. Next time if you want to feel smarter, start without insulting others and be more respectful. You talk to strangers not your family members.

I was talking to the idiot that makes multi accounts on foruns, that image represents that workers on FF are completley broken, 25 full leadership duelers dealing 6k damage on 1 round, and 10k on the next one and it goes on.
About the xp thing, you will gain so much advantage, that will turn in a exponencial advantage to workers on xp because of login bonus etc etc... just think a little bit

 

[Uchiha Madara]

I was talking to the idiot that makes multi accounts on foruns, that image represents that workers on FF are completley broken, 25 full leadership duelers dealing 6k damage on 1 round, and 10k on the next one and it goes on.
About the xp thing, you will gain so much advantage, that will turn in a exponencial advantage to workers on xp because of login bonus etc etc... just think a little bit

But again you start your sentence with an insult. As much as someone may or may not be correct you shouldn't insult others just because. You can say whatever you want to say like a normal human. We are discussing and debating, its a totally normal thing, insulting just doesn't take place here and generally anywhere where people try to have a conversation about anything.

Workers are not broken. They are strong and their true power shines on WT. Doesnt change the fact though that they have way less HP than a Soldier and can be out tanked by a Soldier almost 99% of the times.

Duelers are broken because of the high HP of Soldiers and the fact that they compliment eachother very nicely not Workers. Those 25 duelers can also do 6k damage to a Soldier. It doesnt mean anything. 1 round doesnt change anything. The fact that the worker might die next round after Dodging 20 shots is a fact. A Soldier dying next round after Dodging 20 shots is almost never. He can live for another 3-5 rounds easily.

 

[sombrero]

But again you start your sentence with an insult. As much as someone may or may not be correct you shouldn't insult others just because. You can say whatever you want to say like a normal human. We are discussing and debating, its a totally normal thing, insulting just doesn't take place here and generally anywhere where people try to have a conversation about anything.

Workers are not broken. They are strong and their true power shines on WT. Doesnt change the fact though that they have way less HP than a Soldier and can be out tanked by a Soldier almost 99% of the times.

Duelers are broken because of the high HP of Soldiers and the fact that they compliment eachother very nicely not Workers. Those 25 duelers can also do 6k damage to a Soldier. It doesnt mean anything. 1 round doesnt change anything. The fact that the worker might die next round after Dodging 20 shots is a fact. A Soldier dying next round after Dodging 20 shots is almost never. He can live for another 3-5 rounds easily.

if you think 25 duelers deal 6k damage to a soldier is because you either never played a real battle or you are bias with your opinion, imnt saying this in a bad way but that will happen 1 in a million rounds.
I also say this because i play daily battles and we actual see the difference when ists a worker tanking or a soldier

 

[Uchiha Madara]

if you think 25 duelers deal 6k damage to a soldier is because you either never played a real battle or you are bias with your opinion, imnt saying this in a bad way but that will happen 1 in a million rounds.
I also say this because i play daily battles and we actual see the difference when ists a worker tanking or a soldier

I am playing real battles. Matter of fact I play in Large battles. The image you sent is from a small battle. I think you are the one that haven't played a real battle. It can happen many times where a Soldier can dodge many many shots in 1 round. And it can also happen many times where 20+ duelers will deal less than 10k damage. Its called RNG. If you didn't know, battles are purely RNG, your stats play very little role. You can have 500+ aim chance and still miss on a 200 dodge chance Soldier. Thats just the way it is.

 

[Test acc]

I am playing real battles. Matter of fact I play in Large battles. The image you sent is from a small battle. I think you are the one that haven't played a real battle. It can happen many times where a Soldier can dodge many many shots in 1 round. And it can also happen many times where 20+ duelers will deal less than 10k damage. Its called RNG. If you didn't know, battles are purely RNG, your stats play very little role. You can have 500+ aim chance and still miss on a 200 dodge chance Soldier. Thats just the way it is.

just ask him why his 2 accounts with 500k + jobs in months, and lot of thins 4^ and 5^ in colorado both are duelers.