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Update 2.127 discussion

Leones

Master Sergeant
Former Team Member
Feel free to let us know your thoughts on the latest update!

The new formula is as follows:
1 + max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)|^0.6) ÷ 400)
⌊100 × (skill1 + leadership + dodging) ÷ maxHealth⌋
 

RaiderTr

Master Sergeant
To clarify;

New Damage formula:
( Weapon Damage + Sector Damage ) x ( 1 + [max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)|^0.6) ÷ 400)] )

New Resistance formula:
100 × (skill1 + leadership + dodging) ÷ maxHealth + Resistance Bonus


Skill1
refers to Hiding/Traps
 

Lordofgods

Private
What is exactly the goal of these formula changes? Don't get me wrong, I'm excited for some needed changes, but upon looking at the numbers, I don't think It will be any better than we actually have. There have been many players making calculations (you can check on the events forum, link posted by Raider) and I offer some little of my own (I won't get much into detail...but rough numbers should suffice)

Specs:
Adventurer; 430 Damage Weapon; 50 Damage consumable; 150 Damage Sector (usual); over 13000HP
Damages : New about 975 // Old about 650
Resistance : New about 171 // Old about 170

Increasing damages of other players (such as tankers) will further aggravate the current problem. In this example "usual" tankers won't really benefit from the new Resistance Formula.
Ps: I hope my calculations are true, will keep checking.
 

Lordofgods

Private
Just to add one more thing...
Looking into this part of the formula " − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)|^0.6 " the "Negative" part
In order to max out the Damages one should minimize this negative downside, So in other words // maxHealth ÷ 10 =~mean(skill1, leadership, aiming) // (aproximately equal). Therefore in the example of a player with 1590HP with high stats, Adding more HP will actually increase Damages!!
Please revisit these formulas, and thank you for the hope :)
 

Harsha.1

Private First Class
I have pretty much come to the same results as lordofgods. HP penalty is lowered and resistance is pretty much unchanged (but pure resistance builds will be affected). But, my hope is that there will be a long testing period of the new formula and that this is only the first step. Next steps ought to have changes to the attack/def formula and to RNG of defense values. If hit-ratio decreases, then tanks can dodge more and the high damage wont have that much impact.
 

Kasza1987

Reservist
I have six quest

Can we give potion of a new beginning on normal server?
because need new clothes, new skill important and lots of player only life or leadership.

Why dont give extra damage, resist, and fort battle attack, defens little player?
forexample everybody level 150 but me level 50
I have as many chances as a squirrel in a forest fire. Easy, all player in fort battle average level -small player level=x
x/1,2= bonus resist
x/1,25= bonus damage
x/20= bonus attack damagde
x/13= bonus defens
When start fort battle everybody give bonus once time all fort battle time, do no more calculated.
Maybe more littel player will come fort battle.

Did you think soldier's fort battle bonus?

Did you think how many calculated need for server, every fort battle will be good, no lagg, no problem?


Is realy good idea more damage on tank and lower damage for leadership character?
More player will be tank, and see together in fort battle because less damage and more life, and we are waitting dualler critical damage.

It is realy best of idea balanced fort battle, because lots of leadership character stop fort battle?
 

DeletedUser500

Guest
It is realy best of idea balanced fort battle, because lots of leadership character stop fort battle?
I know leaderships arent the smartest players, but you really think they will quit just because they have more than 1 skill to think about now to do the same damage?
Tanks have always had diminishing returns on HP, but leadership made you stronger and stronger forever, which is exactly why all the tanks are gone from the game now. New damage formula means you can't simply stack all SP into one skill, be it HP, leader or hiding/trapping for resist, because you'll be punished for not having balanced skills. Which I think is wonderful, as I think the goal should be no more glass cannons sitting in the back row doing 40k damage while tanks get 20 dodges and 3k damage in a battle.
 
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Kasza1987

Reservist
I know leaderships arent the smartest players, but you really think they will quit just because they have more than 1 skill to think about now to do the same damage?
Tanks have always had diminishing returns on HP, but leadership made you stronger and stronger forever, which is exactly why all the tanks are gone from the game now. New damage formula means you can't simply stack all SP into one skill, be it HP, leader or hiding/trapping for resist, because you'll be punished for not having balanced skills. Which I think is wonderful, as I think the goal should be no more glass cannons sitting in the back row doing 40k damage while tanks get 20 dodges and 3k damage in a battle.

You right, and it is infair now, but a management make it, murrietta sett, union stb etc, and now make new calculation and make new cloths and management happy.
shall i make better forumle? will you speak and test or nothing, because i think 1-2 hour and make more batter formule?
I had 5 quest it is one :D
 

RaiderTr

Master Sergeant
Looking into this part of the formula " − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)|^0.6 " the "Negative" part
In order to max out the Damages one should minimize this negative downside, So in other words // maxHealth ÷ 10 =~mean(skill1, leadership, aiming) // (aproximately equal). Therefore in the example of a player with 1590HP with high stats, Adding more HP will actually increase Damages!!

One thing you are missing, | | is absolute values. So any negative will be made positive, then have ^0.6, then be made -
And then divided by 400 in the end.

Issue is, the negative value becomes too little to have much effect.
/10 should become /5 or somethin. Or, ^0.6 could be ^0.7.
 
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Diggo11

The West Team
Dev Team
What is exactly the goal of these formula changes?
The goal of previous changes has been to defuse a hp arms race and the ever larger tanks. This was successful, but somewhat too successful, allowing the attacking side to exploit their line of sight advantage using glass cannons in a way that is more powerful than we intended. Therefore we have decided to run experiments to see how we can moderate and balance these two goals. Our subsequent experiments will likely make further changes to the resistance formula, the penalty for shooting from a distance and potentially other areas as well.

Therefore in the example of a player with 1590HP with high stats, Adding more HP will actually increase Damages!!
This is only the case when the player has very high skills but very low health. The opposite is true when the player has very low skills but very high health.

Why dont give extra damage, resist, and fort battle attack, defens little player?
The benefit to low level players of the current formulas is one of my favourite parts about them. It is our hope to preserve this element.

Did you think how many calculated need for server, every fort battle will be good, no lagg, no problem?
We will be monitoring closely whether we need to add any further optimisations to ensure the rounds run as smoothly as before.
 

Kasza1987

Reservist
1 + max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, aiming) ÷ 1,5 + median(skill1, leadership, aiming) ÷ 4 + max(skill1, leadership, aiming) ÷ 6,5 /maxHealth^0,15
(skill1 + leadership + dodging) ÷ maxHealth^0,4

more better balanced :P
 

RaiderTr

Master Sergeant
The goal of previous changes has been to defuse a hp arms race and the ever larger tanks.
Issue was, there were no diminishing returns to the Damage formula and power-creep did the rest.
Didn't even need to have the (%50 to %70 more powerful than +2 Tombola Damager sets) Union Officer, as IFBC 3 showed..

Apart from the increased hit ratios of Damagers, which also directly meant more Critical hits..
Our subsequent experiments will likely make further changes to the resistance formula
Cheers

I hope to see a little bit of tinkering to the Damage formula too. The penalty part especially.
 
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Lordofgods

Private
One thing you are missing, | | is absolute values. So any negative will be made positive, then have ^0.6,
Yeah I meant that... maxHealth ÷ 10 - mean(skill1, leadership, aiming) =~0 (should aproximate 0 for less penalty) therefore if you have high enough skills, Increasing HP will Increase your damage output, Which I think isn't the better balancing mechanism.

I'm very happy with your response Diggo, and again hopeful! So lets work together to make it better!

Increasing the damages of the so called "Tankers" should not be a priority, Increasing their "tankiness" should.
Just some more ramdom "Builds" so you can see how broken this could get
Comparing Old with the New formula:
1590HP "Glass Cannon" the New formula provides about less than 50 Damage but more than 5 Attack (With the right build) Which barely makes a difference.
8000HP with Damager cloths > the New formula provides about less than 150Damage (compared to the Old "Glass Cannon")
This last one really strikes me...So you can have 8000HP and still do around 1350Damage per Hit? Seems outrageous!

Do you really want normal "tankers" with 10k HP deal about 900 Damage per hit all around??? It certainly would be a indirect buff to Adventurers (and Workers...jeez)

Increasing your HP should never Increase your Damage output.
So the "maxHealth ÷ 10" should be separated from the other clause, making it more like this : -(maxHealth ÷ 10)^0.6 - mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.6 >> I didn't make the calculations for this....just want to say that one should be separated from the other...

And just one more thing...I think the Sector Damage is also TOO overpowered...maybe droping it from the ( Weapon Damage + Sector Damage ) so it does not get the "multiplier" porcion, and simply adding in the end.
 
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RaiderTr

Master Sergeant
Yes I already predicted the inevitable outcome: Even more Quarter/Semi/Full Hp builds with Damager gear.

And since Lowest skill (which would be Aiming for Tanks) is the key point of the Damage formula , increasing it (nowadays Damager sets have about 700 avg) will make a big effect with that ^0.8.
Might as well put all Ap into Dex for maximum effect..

Tanking has always been an unthankful job, but giving them lots more Damage isn't the way to go about this imo.
So I really hope that, Rewards change is in the store instead, while fixing the penalty part of the new formula.
 
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Zulus

Private
If the aim is to again encourage more people to have tank builds, then the obvious solution would have been to decrease the dmg done by all full ld builds, duellers in particular + decrease the hit / miss ratio of all those damagers + increase resistance and dodge chance of all those that we encourage to have hp builds again to be able to block anything during fort fights for a little longer then a blink of an eye.

By increasing any damage irrespective who it can be done by now under the new formula makes no sense to me at all especially that at the same time resistance and dodge values of potential blockers have remained basically the same.
 

Jeremiah Johnson

Private First Class
So the bottom line here is....Damagers are still favored and tanks are still playthings.

So my question is why ever bother playing a Solider or Adventurer for fort fights?
 
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Lordofgods

Private
Upon looking at some variations of a possible Damage Formula...I came across one quite obvious problem...We don't want to discourage Having HP in battles, and therefore increasing more the Damages when sacrificing HP even more than it is in the old formula should be a landmark not to cross.

You probably don't want us to specifically work on our formula ideas, just to talk about what is put in front of us. So...I see the difficult task in this, I can see that you decided to have a somewhat "percentage" based Damage formula (addind the multiplier clause)...So the obvious question is...

Why wouldn't Resistance be also Percentage based? I know you have answered somewhere that this would not be in your plans...but think a little deeper please.

This would resolve much of you Goals : Help decreasing the Glass Cannon Damages ; Not get Tanks with 10k HP and some damages cloths do Outrageous Damages; And overall give a more balanced look to our Possible Builds (not just Full Health and Full Lidership as we have today)

Also, I think HP should be more encouraged if these changes aply, like adding HP to the Resistance Formula
 
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