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Splitting Duel Mot Feedback

Discussion in 'Versions 2.08 & 2.09' started by HelenBack, Jan 28, 2014.

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  1. HelenBack

    HelenBack Private First Class

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    I didn't see a FeedBack thread for Splitting Duel Motivation as announced here...

    I do see an issue... If this is pushed onto all the servers, it will only make me want to duel people more often. Right now, I don't duel much (if at all) because I'm questing on most worlds, but I use NPCs to keep my duel mot low so it doesn't push my duel level up if someone duels me and loses. So, all this will do is force me to duel peeps who may not want me to duel them.

    I don't think this will help to reduce the Zero Mot "issue" that people keep complaining about. If anything, it will increase the Zero Mot "issue" as those who everyone is so afraid of will seek out easy targets just to lower their Duel Mot before they possibly move on to bigger targets.
    :rolleyes:

    If you really want to reduce the Zero Mot "issue", I would suggest forcing a cap on the number of regular levels above and below that people can duel... So, for example, a Level 100 can only duel people within Level 80 and 120. That will keep people with similar AP and SP able to duel each other... and not pick on people 60 levels below them.

    It seems to me that people are trying to get rid of dueling altogether... which is a real shame since it started as a DUELING game... Forts were added much later. If it continues down this road, I know a lot of people that will finally give up and leave the game for something else. Sad to say it, but it's true. Dueling has had a muzzle forced on it and it's getting worse and worse for the true duelers. I don't even bother dueling much anymore because of the changes... and my interest in the West is lowering. The only thing keeping me here are the people I know. If it wasn't for them, I would have left a long time ago. Soon, I'll move on anyways and give my friends an email address to keep in touch with me.
    :tumble: :(
     
  2. SocratesTheBest

    SocratesTheBest Lance Corporal

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    Personally i like the whole idea but there seems to be a bug with the actual "player duelling" motivation bar.I watched a movie in the cinema 3 times thinking i will get 18% motivation as i usually get, but instead i got none.Only when i had the actual duel window open i got motivation out of the cinema.

    Anyways back to the feedback.I think it will help a bunch but it won't make a huge change.0 motivation duellers can still duel low level players in order to get 10-20 exp each duel till they drop their motivation back to 0 again.and then do the same thing each day for their first duels in order to get the motivation back to 0.Maybe raising the motivation more each time a day changes will be more helpful.Even better if it gets back to 100% each day? :whistle: just saying
     
  3. fafer

    fafer Guest

    I think this will kill many many 0-mot duelers because most of them won't have patience to bother looking for low level players to drop motivation, plus you need to spend 12 energy to drop motivation and 10 minutes + travel time.
    And motivation raises over time (how fast? i don't know).

    Did this update on beta reset PC duel motivation to 100%?

    I like style of 0-mots, gives more variety to game, it would be shame to dissappear. I kinda started playing this game 5 years ago for duels, when worlds were full of active players and many were dueling. I think lots of people started playing for duels. But today, vast majority are bored from dueling which is really shame for such themed game. What this game needs is MPIs (multiplayer instances as devs are currently calling them) which are focused on dueling skills and duelers.

    And to be funny, main page of west shows two cowboys ready to draw weapons and duel. Oh, you could fool a lot of people with that. I think guy shooting from behind fort wall and one guy building church would be more appropriate for main page :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2014
  4. lulumcnoob

    lulumcnoob Sergeant Former Team Member

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    All you have to do to get your 0% duel motivation is sort your duel list by lowest duel level and duel ~50 players, your duel level won't rise much at all. And if you are already at 0%, set a couple of duels the same way as your first duels of the day and your mot is back to 0%. So I don't think it will kill off a very determined zmd, but it's a start I guess.
     
  5. fafer

    fafer Guest

    yeah, that's 500 minutes of pure dueling + travel time.
    and that's 600 energy spent.

    also, 0-mots could lose duels on purpose so duel level does not raise at all.
     
  6. lulumcnoob

    lulumcnoob Sergeant Former Team Member

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    It's still a way to cheat the system :p

    What would that accomplish other than lost town points?
     
  7. Diggo11

    Diggo11 The West Team Dev Team

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    Thanks, I will try to reproduce this now.

    Hopefully it doesn't. They existed well before duel menu NPCs, however admittedly the location back then was the saloon, which required less travelling. (Although hopefully the new focus on the middle of the map will alleviate this too.) We will continue to push though for some other measures to assist experience duellers in particular.
     
  8. killado

    killado Staff Sergeant

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    Only in the last weekend i lost 8 friends from here that got sick of losing 100 energy for some of those peeps that get 0 experience from 3 duels against them. They just deleted there accounts due to that happening each week for 2 to 3 times. Players with 4 years of the game. In December there where 22, due to the same reason.
    From 37 i had on my friend list, im with 7... in a little more than 1 month.
    That barrier of the duel level 160 to 250 is filled with 0 motivation duelers that just go around ko people with there howdahs, golden tomahawks and dueling sets.
    And there are only 2 ways to be out of there target list: dying on jobs every 2 days (or been ko by then every 2 days) or raising for a higher level of duel experience.

    They can still duel but if you make 5000 duels like many have, you should get experience for that. And not making 4500 duels and get 0 experience from those.
     
  9. HelenBack

    HelenBack Private First Class

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    And I know people that get sick of losing 100 Energy in fort battles... Some of the new jobs are deadly... You could put one hour into working and die that way too.

    It's not good that people feel they need to leave for any reason, but they are not the only ones that felt compelled to leave.

    We already lost a lot of people that were duelers... by the hundreds... even thousands. Dueling is what this game was based on when it started. Many of those people paid monthly to use premiums as well... (Some spent thousands of dollars!) Which supported the game... Only to have it all backfire on them as forts were introduced and the almighty fort fighter decided that they should not be dueled because they do battles... All hail the fort fighter... Put them on a pedestal and bow down to them.
    :rolleyes:

    Yes, there are some Zero Mots that have thousands of duels who target the weak... I'm not saying there aren't... But why screw up the game for the rest of the duelers? Some of which are Zero Mots just to make sure they don't run out of targets... Some who stay as Zero Mots to target the Zero Mots who prey on the weak... Some are Zero Mot so they don't have someone twice their size dueling them. People are painting all Zero Mots the same colour when there are many shades of grey.

    They have messed up the dueling skills... They are pushing duelers out of the game. You push all the duelers out of the game, you won't be able to keep your fort battles full as many duelers also help their alliance with fort battles... No they may not be perfectly skilled for forts, but they will still help.

    If InnoGames wants to make dueling fair... Make dueling limited by regular character level. Let people do their Zero Mot Dueling... or Mega Experience Dueling... Maybe those who are Zero Mot Dueling will stop on their own if they no longer need to worry about being limited to less than a dozen targets in the whole world... Stop messing with the dueling skills... Unless you change them back, then that's fine... but please don't screw them up any worse than they already are.

    Oh and just FYI... I play ALL aspects of the game. I quest, I work, I fort, and I duel. Many of those who focus on just one aspect of the game (like forts) seem to think no one should be allowed to play the game differently than they do. I think duelers are the most open minded... In general, they'll duel anyone and don't mind being dueled. Those who are in alliances often help out with battles... They help out gathering products for building the forts... They help duel the enemy to lower their HP for the battles.

    I know of some elite fort fighters that wouldn't lower themselves to doing manual labour to help gather products... They have all their SP in HP and have no skills for doing jobs... at least that's the story they are sticking to.
    ;)

    Honestly, if someone does not want to be dueled, they do have options... Don't join a town... Work a job to KO yourself every 2 days... Which is easy to do... Just remember every Odd or Even day, you need to find a deadly job to work your last bit of energy on... then you need to sleep to replenish your energy anyways so you can replenish your health at the same time.

    Right now, I'm questing more than anything... I'm getting dueled and getting KO'd... It's part of the game... Live with it.
    :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2014
  10. Pankreas PorFavor

    Pankreas PorFavor Reservist

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    Making The West a game for 5-year olds and their grandmothers:
    step 1 - accomplished!

    I really don't know what to say... "I am defenseless and I get KOd in a duel because I am a pure trader/builder/whatever, boohoohoo..."

    I always thought that The West was a game that is supposed to be hard, that requires you to plan in advance, to have a balanced build that would make you a jack of all trades but master of none - so you can survive a duel and even make some damage, but at the same time you can work on all jobs, participate in fort battles, build towns and forts, do quests. All at the same time. I did exactly that for a couple of years with my main character, and it was fun. Now I am a pure HP fort tank there and that is fun too. Sure, sometimes I forget about KOing myself and I get dueled. It happened 2 times in the last year. So much for dueling problems.

    Other option is specialization. I did that too. Pure builder - I accepted the risk, got dueled regularly - and I am still here. Now my pure trader has the same "problem". Oh wait, there is no problem! I KO myself every other day on a job. If only there was a way to spread the word and other people could find out about that "trick"... nah, just ban dueling, that is easier.

    And so I am left with one character specialized for duels. Yeah, that is also the one with all the construction achievements, by the way. What can I do with this character when you kill dueling? Build the church for the next couple of years, that sounds fun! Or maybe go pure trading, and find a Wyatt Earp's buntline. You know, the one weapon everyone will have soon, like almost everyone has a couple of Belle's derringers right now. Oh, the excitement!

    There was a time when the worlds of The West were populated by tens of thousands of players. And with each new decision Innogames made the numbers drop lower and lower. You really think you are doing a good job?

    I read stories in this thread about people who played this game for many years, and last month they decided to quit because they often get KOd by 0mot duelers. I had no idea 0mot dueling was invented in Novemeber 2013?! You honestly want us to believe that someone who invested 4 years in this game got dueled and KOd for the first time just recently?! And not one, but dozens of players like that? They don't know how to protect themselves from a duel? Really? They rather quit after 4 years of playing? Oh yeah, I buy that.

    Anyway, I don't care anymore. I will reduce the number of worlds where I play. There is no point. It is getting boring more and more, you are making it to easy, dear Innogames. Numbers prove it. Count the players in .net worlds and tell me I am wrong.

    But solving the issue of 0mot duelling is the priority, right? What exactly is the issue? They can KO people? I thought this is a role playing game, and one of the roles we can play is a bandit that walks around and shoots people. And then they get a bounty on their head. Wow, that's almost like in the real wild west!

    Stop trying to fix what isn't broken, PLEASE! Players complain about getting dueled? Tell them how to protect themselves - put it in the greenhorn quest, put it on wiki pages, disable duels for players under level 30 (or whatever) so they do't get discouraged when they start playing, there are so many options proposed by players, and you go ahead with this one. Don't kill dueling. Please don't. Give it a different name: robbery, aggravated assault, whatever, but don't kill it.
     
  11. killado

    killado Staff Sergeant

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    In the last 3 months the number of 0 motivation duellers raised for hundreds. Before september i had only a few sights of those 0 motivation. Since around the end of October, they are like flies. In the last 50 duels, 49 that attacked me where 0 experience. Only 1 duel from someone that is trying to blast over the rankings.
    The problem is not losing the duel or getting ko. The problem is that its a loss... for ZERO. Basically a KILL FOR FUN by some groups.

    And, NO Helen they don´t stop there for having more duelers... they stop there because there they can get 1M wins, 999000 KO because on that range they can get some hundreds of targets... easy prey for there duelling.
    So other people get pounded everyday.

    And going back? Yes. Lets get back to the old system without the duel experience. But... with the experience limitation back on. So if you duel a weak one you get 0 exp 0 duel and $0. But you can only duel people that have 30% over and below your total experience.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2014
  12. Pankreas PorFavor

    Pankreas PorFavor Reservist

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    what world are we talking about? beta? I haven't noticed any change... in beta or .net worlds.
    there are 3 worlds where I am open for duels, and in the last 3 months 49 out of 50 attacks are by the same person. if there really is such an increase in 0mot duelers that can attack 4 year old characters, I must be extremely lucky not to see any of them. I should play the lottery, I hear there is a huge jackpot waiting for the winner....

    I am not Helen, but...
    first you say this:
    then this:
    ummm, contradiction?
    sure, I cut the part where can get millions of dollars, wins, KOs - but only because they have targets. when you have a world with 20 duelers and everyone else is out of range - what do you do? initiate one duel every few hours because 5 potential targets are sleeping in the hotel, 5 are KOd so they can work on a job, 5 are in a fort battle, and the rest are scattered all over the map.

    weak one? if I am 0mot, I can duel people who have the same amount of skill and attribute points. they are weak by choice. or I can duel someone who is 50 levels below me but they got thousands of experience points from duels. if it's ok for them to attack others and win duels, they should be ready to take a beating every now and then.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2014
  13. Diggo11

    Diggo11 The West Team Dev Team

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    Sounds like you should! There's little doubt the amount of zero motivation compared to experience duellers has been gradually increasing on the international worlds; as I understand it, other language servers have merely been catching up to the same extreme ratio recently.

    Not that I want to send the wrong impression playing devil's advocate, but as I wrote on the last page, zero motivation duelling also existed before duel menu NPCs. It would appear equally unbelievable if duellers quit after four years because of a step back closer to how things used to be, the time when the strategy was actually conceived and popularised. (Again, I acknowledge the difference in duel location, but point to the middle of the map factor.) Reasoned argument excluded, perhaps we could be saved the dramatic elements, lest duellers be accused of not knowing how to implement their own strategy either after 4 years of playing. A better pitch would be the consequence of finding motivation drainers from other sources, as well as the reason why the alternative (experience duelling) isn't practical.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2014
  14. henry j.

    henry j. Reservist

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    Just reset dueling motivation to 100% every day like job motivation.
     
  15. lulumcnoob

    lulumcnoob Sergeant Former Team Member

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    Then what's the downside to an exp dueller simply duelling all day long, if their motivation is just reset at midnight anyway? The biggest challenge I find of an exp dueller is keeping your motivation as high as possible so you get the most exp possible.
     
  16. Pankreas PorFavor

    Pankreas PorFavor Reservist

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    Diggo, if you go to what Joony posted in the Announcements section of the forum here's how the thread started:
    "This is a first step to fight Zero motivation dueling."

    First means there will be second, third... as many as needed to fight 0 mot dueling. I still didn't hear why that is necessary? they can KO people? what, XP duelers can't do that?

    What do 0 mot duelers do? they attack non-duelers, other 0mot duelers, and XP duelers.
    Who do XP duelers attack? Non-duelers, other XP duelers - but they run away from 0mot duelers because they don't have a chance to win, since the difference in AP/SP and equipment is on 0mot duelers side. soooo... where is the problem?

    I don't understand why 0mot is such a big issue? in one world I am attacked almost exclusively by one 0mot dueler. day in - day out. but since I don't care about that character, I don't bother KOing myself on a job. at the same time, on another world I am attacked by an XP dueler who enjoys all the XP that a casual fort fighter with no dueling skills gives her. on the other hand, I enjoy knowing how she gets beat up by 0mot duelers. soon I will be out of her reach and almost duel free, since none from the swarm of newly hatched 0mot duelers are attacking. I wonder why?
    and then there are 2 worlds where I play seriously and I haven't been dueled 10 times all together in the last year. god bless job KOs. I remember a few years ago when it was proposed that job KOs and duel KOs get split. I can't even imagine that idea being mentioned today.
    and my 5th character is a 0mot dueler. I am not discriminating - if you're close, and I have energy and HP - I will attack. so what? everyone has an easy way to defend themselves or protect themselves and be duel free.
    but no, lets go for "first step to fight Zero motivation dueling" and make this game as easy as possible.

    all I am saying is - why 0 motivational dueling? what is so bad about it that you decided to change the game and get rid of it? it is practically the same as XP dueling, with the exception that XP has to face 0mots, and sooner or later they reach a level where there are almost no targets for them.
     
  17. lulumcnoob

    lulumcnoob Sergeant Former Team Member

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    What's the point in NPC duels now? The only use they have now is some ridiculously hard quests and a bond.
     
  18. olga

    olga Master Sergeant

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    I really thought that this duel of 0 mot NOOBs against those who prefer other aspects of the game was over. Please stop - you will never agree. Just respect that we see the game differently and have different way to play it.

    On my normal word I am a pure builder and I have no way to defend myself against these NOOBs - I really loved to tell one of them yesterday when he asked me to build his city to get the new shops- the phrase I have heard at least 100 times- you can just do a reskill - duels is a part of the game.
    :lol:- yes - You can just do a reskill- building is a part of this game :-D

    I fail to see the point with these duels- getting 0 exp - It might be a part of the game - but why. - Please don´t try to explain - just stop throwing mud at each other and get on with the game. Be constructive and find new ways- instead of saying it is part of the game.

    And just a little off topic- please give us a free reskill once a month or so - on normal worlds- then that phrase might begin to make sense.
     
  19. Pankreas PorFavor

    Pankreas PorFavor Reservist

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    Olga, did you even read Joony's post? Do you even know what this topic is about?

    We need to respect that you want to play your game differenty? How is anyone trying to change the way you play it?! Did you read anything that was posted in this thread? You have no way to protect yourself? Really? And you are calling duelers noobs?

    Accross 5 worlds I play I must have participated in around a thousand duels last year. As a pure trader, fort fighter and 0mot dueler. There was maybe 50 where I didn't care if I'm attacked and only 5 or 6 (yes, five or six, it's not a typo) times I didn't want to be a part of a duel. That's 0,5% so PLEASE don't call us noobs and say you can't protect yourself. It just isn't true.
     
  20. lulumcnoob

    lulumcnoob Sergeant Former Team Member

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    Olga, duelling is not just "part of the game" for some people, it's the entire game. Plenty of players couldn't care less about fort battles, and they think questing or building or working mind-numbingly boring, and would rather watch Justin Bieber's movie than do any of that stuff. (okay, maybe that is too far)

    Let's look at it from another perspective. If you duel enough, your motivation will reach 0% regardless of whether you want it to or not, so why should someone have to wait until their motivation is back at full before they start duelling again? And, of course, there are plenty of players who would purposely get their duel motivation to 0% through NPC duels, but when you think of the benefits (more targets, ability to tag-team with your friends, keeping out of the range of bigger players, etc) then it's not hard to see why.

    Oh, and referring to these players as "NOOBs" because they enjoy this part of the game, while trying to argue that different players like different aspects of it does kinda make your argument seem rather hypocritical.

    Also, you know fine well that there is a way to defend yourself against duellers if you want to avoid being duelled - job ko's. They are in the game for a reason ;)

    And okay, it's true that duelling was never supposed to work this way. Your duel level is supposed to be raised as you win more duels, so that you eventually can't pick on the weak targets anymore, you just have other duellers like you.
    However, as has been stated a number of times already, this hardly ever works out for you. Experience duellers are basically getting punished for duelling as it was "meant" to be done, with the lack of targets to hit, especially on newly opened worlds.
    I'm interested to see how the game designers tackle this issue, that puts a lot of players off exp duelling entirely.