• Howdy partner! You seem new here. Why don't you make an account and join the discussion? You can register here.
    Already have one? Then you login here!
  • Welcome to the saloon, Guest! This is the place where you can discuss about anything you want! Well, almost. Try to not break any of the rules whenever you post otherwise the sheriff might lock you down!

Let's talk about Fort Battles, Adventures and Duelling

lulumcnoob

Staff Sergeant
Former Team Member
I think another problem is, that skill matters much less than earlier. I remember the fun we had trying to find the optimal skill, testing the different skills etc. It was already mentioned that with the right set it doesn't matter what skill you have... Maybe we could fix this by doubling the skill points we get for each level. I know that this leads to some problems as the difficulties might have to be adjusted. On the other hand, with the sets you can do any work anyways so this might be obsolet...
I absolutely agree that the massive amount of skill points is the entire problem. A fort fighter or full-time berry picker is almost as strong as a pure dueller, when both are in equal duelling gear, and the RNG on top of that makes it a complete gamble. Your personal skills don't matter much anymore.

But I don't think adding even more skill points into the equation is the answer... I think the only way to save duelling, is to completely re-make the class bonuses so that you can actually pick your bonuses. Fort fighters will pick fort fighting bonuses, berry pickers can pick product drop bonuses, and duellers can pick duelling bonuses (or you can choose to hybridise), and this would be the mechanic in which the playstyles actually differ from each other, because at the moment, you simply change gear and you are a professional dueller, or change gear and you are a professional fort fighter, etc. No reskill required and no class consideration because everyone can do everything. In fact I can do almost every job on the map at level 50 with a tombola set. This is not the way.

All of the fun has been sucked out of this game, and duelling in particular, by the decision to take the Multiple-GOTY-Award-Winning The-West and turn it into tombola simulator.

And the simplest way to relieve all of the issues with PvP is to consolidate the communities into one or two worlds, so that the game can actually function properly again. They won't even do that.... Can you believe they want to raise the level cap, in the face of the entire PvP being broken?
 
Last edited:

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
massive amount of skill & attribute points (of Sets) is the entire problem
Sadly this is why we need "Diminishing returns" in every PvP and related mechanics/formulas.

But even Diminishing returns ain't the answer to all problems.
We still go by flat values instead of percentages. Besides Rewarding and all other mechanics are obsolete as well.

I'm okay with Sets making things easier nowadays tho.
Otherwise we can't catch up to extreme amount of Quests, Farming prods etc.

Let alone the fact that getting to Level 150 taking forever and them still wanting to increase the max Level cap even further.
Can you believe they want to raise the level cap
They don't seem to comprehend that we have enough features/game content as is. (But issue is them being outdated)
Instead, they think they can extend the game content by max Level increase :njub:
 
Last edited:

lulumcnoob

Staff Sergeant
Former Team Member
I'm okay with Sets making things easier nowadays tho.
Otherwise we can't catch up to extreme amount of Quests, Farming prods etc.
Well I'll concede you this point, even if I feel that the game shouldn't change to accommodate mis-managed elements, those elements should be balanced instead.

They don't seem to comprehend that we have enough features/game content as is. (But issue is them being outdated)
Instead, they think they can extend the game content by max Level increase :njub:
Yeah... I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until it sticks, the content in this game are the other players and your direct and indirect interactions with them. They are our most precious resource and they make the game worth playing. No amount of Quests, no amount of grinding for new levels will subtract from the real content in this game, but the fact that the PvP has been bordering on unplayable for so long does subtract from the game's content, because they simply down tools and quit from frustration. We must act, as soon as possible, to consolidate our game's content into as few places as possible. Most worlds having around or less than 300 active players is unacceptable when we're being held as prisoners in worlds we can't play, due to lack of content. meaning players. Adding another 1000 quests or another 50 levels won't do a single thing for the content of this game.
I'll go as far to say that I believe most of the money spent on this game is spent in an attempt to make PvP fun again, but it's self-defeating as we only increase the premium gap and make things worse, make more players quit because they simply can't compete.
 
Last edited:

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
Well yes, I'm not okay with Power-Creep, at all.

Would rather have them focus on Cosmetics of Sets, instead of OP Skills/Bonuses that are becoming higher continuously.
(This, of course, doesnt mean that they should become worse!)
I believe most of the money spent on this game is spent in an attempt to make PvP fun again
They should, they get the most revenue from PvP. In particular, Fort Fight related stuff.

But I don't think they do now. In past? Maybe.
To be honest I admit that PvP features of this game seem well-thought, including details. But now.. Power-Creep badly-hurted/destroyed it all.

Yet, they keep making PvP Tombola/Nugget sets.. And increasing the Premium/Nugget vs "Free-to-Play" gap.
I mean, very unlikely but, even if they somehow manage to balance things via Sets, there is no guarantee that the new ones won't break it all.

This, of course, doesn't mean that they shouldn't "balance" the OP sets of the past!
Like countering Union Officer/Captain set via a Powerful Tank set was a must (since they weren't going to nerf Damage sets at all) and they were too late to do that!!
Adding another 1000 quests or another 50 levels won't do a single thing for the content of this game.
Will they ever realise that though..

Going by corporation logic.. What money to be gained from Quests.. or Levels.. compared to of PvP?
 
Last edited:

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
So first Attack win in Colorado of .NET, after starting to hold Towers as Defenders and sides are somewhat balanced as bonus: https://www.westforts.com/en15/battles/battle/44712

Defense had some.. big mistakes (Blocks were mainly good) , and Attack had less.
It was close still so it's a good possibility that Defense could've won this too.

It's all good, Attack offering a decent challenge is nothing but welcome.
That being said, not every Tank has Cortina set or upgrades just yet and odds are already a little bit skewed in favor of Defense as even a bit of a slip as Attackers can get them wiped out. (It's satisfying to be able to do that as Defenders thou!)

But yea, as we said few times before, there are other side-effects..
Tanks still can't Dodge on ground and now can't hit nothing (1:2 hit-miss ratios are very common) and/or their Damages be very little on top of that.

Ground results, still-very-High Damages along with too punishing Resistance formula makes Hp still too important, so Soldiers still get the best 'Hits taken + Dodged' results for the most part.
For Towers, Workers come closer/compete at times but still not as reliable as Soldiers.
Adventurers? Everyone knows how they do.. Sure, they ain't meant to be Dodging much to begin with, , but 'Number of Ghosts + Survived hits' ain't satistying and/or Rewarding either.

Damagers? On Towers they often have absurd hit ratios, and on Ground they do just fine.
(Attack bonus of Towers could be slightly less tbh)

On a side note... Since "Damage simulator" sadly doesn't encourage Team-play , it's not uncommon seeing some Tanks 'Tanking' the Tanks on ground so that they Survive longer and Dodge much more (which also means higher Rewards)
 
Last edited:

Newez

Reservist
Among all other (more complex) main problems with FF (mentioned by Raider and others), there's one really easy-to-solve that stands out.

It's UPB rewarding for battles. As a damager it takes me approximately 10 minutes sleeping to fully restore hp for battle. Full hp tank however has to either sleep for several hours or use a lot of expensive refillables. And guess what - at the end of every battle i get 16-22 upb, while tanks get 2-10.

My suggestion is to rework the rewarding system, so it takes into consideration number of taken + dodged shots, while also adding some multiplier if the player died during battle (let's say multiply the bonds received by 1.5).
This causes a main issue with skyrocketing the rewards for dmgers if they also die. Which is illogical, because dying sniper provides no benefit for his team, while tank sacrifice could be the difference between loosing and winning. This could be solved by creating two reward categories tank and sniper (let's be honest hybrid builds are meh anyways), calculate the rewards for both categories and picking the higher number.
 

Newez

Reservist
Another thing I forgot to mention in the original post is it would be really nice that hp refillables from the SHOP (as well as those medical boxes from tombolas etc) are being auctinable.

On my main account I try to help tanks with hp pots, but those from crafts are pretty weak (and/or pretty time-expensive to create). So I have a bag full of powerful refillables which could be utilized by fellow tanks, but no way to give it to them. Then some of them have to spend their hard-obtained bonds for hp refills.
 

Newez

Reservist
In my opinion, before tinkering Rewarding system, or things like Class bonuses, Formulas must be fixed first. Then we adapt everything to Formulas.
Can't agree more. But since testing new formulas (which concept I really enjoyed) took few months and the output of it was just adjusted tower bonuses I tried to propose an immediate solution that could be realeased in 2-3 patches from now (at least the auctionability of health pots). I believe those changes will improve tank life right away while new formulas are being adjusted, tested and so on.
 

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
I think the decision of increasing Max Character Level played a big role on halting all further change :hmf:
I mean any Level means about 2.2 Damage (via weapon) without even including Formula, while Resist ain't changing :no:

I surely hope that they will give up on that horrible decision..
 
Last edited:

pimpa1977

Reservist
So u eat 200 damage per shot in average. Meaning even less than average Tank damage..
You either didn't have any Damagers shoot/Crit you or you have very few Damagers in ur server :roll:

But yea, it's a great set still.
I have placed myself to a spot where no damagers or duellers could see me, that is how I have managed it... The only issue I have with the new set if I am in a sector where have no damage bonus than my average damage goes under 100/shot even with buff. The gap in between players never been bigger than now... And as a TANK I wont get experience points from a fort fight, because that is mainly based on the damage you have caused and the players you knocked out...


The defenders caused some damage on that fight, but as I said, finding the good spot is essential... Tanks cannot cause any on their own...
 

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
Exactly the issues I want them to fix by changing formulas.

Damage gap is way too much, Hit chance gap is also a bit too much.
Total Skill-Attribute points from Anti-sets also have a big gap in favor of Damagers..

Such things Discourage Team-play.. Like the post above says.
 
Last edited:

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
Sooo.. Let me try to show what's these Suggested Formulas actually do, with up-to-date (slightly rounded) values
Damage:
( Weapon Damage + Buff + Sector Damage ) x ( 1 + max(0, (Leadership^0.7 - |MaxHealth ÷ 8 - (Leadership)|^0.6) ÷ 120) )

Resistance:
Resistance Bonus + ( (Skill1)^0.7 − |MaxHealth ÷ 10 − (Skill1)|^0.6 ) ÷ 2

Ps. Remove ÷ 2 if increasing max Character Level. But here's hoping that it won't be increased.

Hit Chance (Attack)
25 + Leadership^0.5 + Aiming^0.55 + (Skill1)^0.6 + Multiplayer Attack + Sector Attack + High Ground Bonus - Distance Penalty

Dodge Chance (Defense)
10 + Leadership^0.5 + Dodging^0.55 + (Skill1)^0.6 + Multiplayer Defence + Sector Defence + High Ground Bonus
HpSpecsBeforeAfter
1590 (No-Hp)​
1700 setting traps​
300 resistance​
100 resistance​
7000​
1700 setting traps​
75 resistance​
120 resistance​
14000​
1000 s. traps (Pure Hp & Mobility)​
21 resistance​
45 resistance​
25000​
1000 s. traps (Pure Hp & Mobility)​
12 resistance​
23 resistance​

Ps. 1000 Hiding isn't possible to reach with same Hp values as J.Cortina doesn't have Hiding and R.Livingston doesn't really offer anything else than Hp.
While this isn't an issue for Soldiers (it is an advantage even, with these suggested formulas), it is a bit of an issue for others.

HpSpecsBeforeAfter
1590​
1800 leadership​
2.13+​
1.88+​
7000​
500 leadership (Set only)​
1.07​
1.35​
14000​
500 leadership (Set only)​
1.03​
1.04​
14000​
700 leadership (Set + Sp/Ap)​
1.05​
1.27+​
25000​
500 leadership (Set only)​
1.02​
1.0​
Ps. Tanks get very little Leadership from their Sets as of late. Hp sets having a little bit more LS would be great.
On a side note, I still don't like "Sector Damage" bonus being multiplied as it makes things even more Set Dependent..

So yeah, even though they ain't perfect, these Formulas make AP distribution relevant, offer different and decent choices via trade-offs, make things slightly less dependent on Sets.
In other words, no more lazy jack-of-all-trades, "One Skill to Rule them All" Sp/Ap spam.


Anyhow.. This will be all for now, but if you got "fantasy" (yet possible nonetheless) calculations, I will gladly add 'em to tables.
 

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
Hits Taken&Dodges + 10k damage + the Bonus Adventurers get when Rank points calculated, still can't make it. Such penalty for being a Tank.

Screenshot_4.png

And this.. "Hits Taken" have such big effect..
The thing is.. Surviving more shots (with same Hp) only means u have less Damagers shooting you.

So if you are being a Team-player and Tanking Damagers for the most part (which also means Less Dodges) , unlike many others nowadays.. You are penalised once again. While of course this promotes "All-in-Hp" builds & favors Soldiers (which brings us to outdated Formulas again)

Screenshot_5.png
 
Last edited:

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
Well, it's sad to see that Soldiers outlive (Hits taken + Dodges) all other Tanks with Hp difference still..

Workers got better with new Towers + J.Cortina etc but still very unreliable.. (They ain't really doing more Damage either)
I mean the Resistance difference between 15k and 30k Hp is "10" (TEN) at best. Dodge superiority can't make it up.

While Adventurers became much important again but.. they ain't rewarded at all. (Cause they don't hit, dodge)
Ghosting should give Xp & Bonds at the very least..
 

Monrey

Reservist
I have a great idea for InnoGames : add a premium feature that allows you to finish a duel instantly. It will be a hit.