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Let's talk about Fort Battles, Adventures and Duelling

I am in the camp that would rather dueling went away completely.
I went town-less on most of the worlds I play to avoid them.

I do not find anything about them 'FUN'.
--To me it is tedious and tiresome to look for a suitable person when I am required to duel for a quest [the only time I might initiate duels].
--being dueled by someone looking to KO me = NOT fun [unless they accidentally manage to lose]
--travel time to the duel, then change clothes, and fill up hp = boring and so NOT fun
-- I also hate the wasted time waiting around to see who wins, so I can go ahead and do something else, even if it just to look for another victim to satisfy a quest.

I know that I can self KO so people can't duel me, and that is ok. But it is also annoying, planning when is a good time so it happens right before I would normally sleep and I don't have to waste buffs to refill health and energy.
I'd rather have a 'protection from being dueled buff' I think there are people that would pay nuggets for such an item if the price was right.
 

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
Well, I don't disagree with either of you for various reasons but "frustrations" of this game could be minimalised imo

Like loser of duel (that is, when defending, not attacking, to prevent abuse) could be given some consolation thing, like other PvP features.
I mean you can get something if you lose a Battle, and even Adventure altho very minimal for that one.

But yea all PvP rewards are outdated/not enough.
 

*Colonel*

Private
Another dueling idea here:

- 50% chance of getting a bond if duel is won (without harming bond-bag of opponent), as I mentioned in my previous post
- and 25% chance of stealing a bond from your opponent if duel is won.

And afterwards, duelling sets with some additional bonuses (instead of regeneration as "bounty hunter" set). Bonues like 50% increased chance to steal the bond (that means basic 25% chance * 1,5 = 37,5% chance), or 50% increased chance of getting bond (50% * 1,5 = 75%) etc.

I think this might make duels much more attractive and a game more dynamic overall and create a "bond circle" for duelists in the game. You get bonds which spend later on Holiday Sale for purchasing another sets in order to win more duels -----> and repeat.

Fort fighters have such bond circle, why duelists shouldn't?
 

Glenn-Boss

Reservist
Hey everyone :)

On the issue of adventures, I'd like to say a bit.
Adventures are really cool, as they don't cost any energy and can be played during jobs/duels/construction.
BUT they're really boring, and not many players have a interest in them anymore. It would be great if the custom teams available on beta could be expanded to the others worlds, and maybe a even new team limit too (lets say 6 vs 6 adventures for example) But I think a serious problem we are facing is the easiest one to fix: better prizes
Lets say we double the number of veteran points, and reward a few bonds per adventure? Ideally the outlaws set could use an upgrade, but I don't think thats gonna happen (although they've been a lot of pleasant surprises recently, so I'd love InnoGames to prove me wrong)

The issue of punishments is a difficult thing, because as very few players play adventures, those who do play tend to be a bit argumentative (especially on .net) and although it would be great to see warnings and penalty points for ragequits, its difficult, as InnoGames would have to blanket all people going offline as offenders, which means people who suffer from connection problems, or real life emergencies are punished. That said, the idea of a adventure ban for 30 mins or so seems really cool, you already get one if you leave during the pre-game lobby (which is ironic as quitting is more harmful during a match than in the lobby) so I definitely agree with @pimpa1977 on that one.

Duels and fort battles? a lot could be changed there, but I'm not gonna waste my breath going on about "p2w nugget munchers and imbalanced fort battles" as I understand changing anything related to duels is gonna be hard (duels are older than adventures and fortbattles) because much of the early game was coded in both english and german, meaning its difficult to change things. whats ideal and whats good is different, and idealism isn't going to bring back players, but we could surely make the game more enjoyable just by tweaking a few little things.

Keep in mind that I'm not a expert on fort battles, I don't enjoy playing them, and I only really know the basics about FF skills.

I hope my opinion helped :)
 

JustAMoment

Private
I like how you are talking about duells, meantime adventurer class is basically useless in everything, since its scaling with new sets, was the worst xD.
Duel - no bonus. ( np here its adventerer after all)
FF - 15k hp max, compared to 30k+ soldiers, with 25/50 chance you will get only 2 crits instead of 10. One round it wont pop and you are lucky you are even alive and you can hide for rest of FF (what an adventure).
Jobs - well the numbers it provides are so small, that it barely helps that much novaydays.
Hotel lvl 2/4? Yeah i dont think its needed even on new world. Maybe make it always lvl 3/5 and it might be nice smol bonus. (Or even 5 all the time, its not so big deal i would say)
Change to Adventurer was teased i believe already in 2017? And still nothing. Not to mention i have feeling 20% crit on duel class procs more often than 50% on adventurer. What sucks most its "only" chance, which in current "DMG destruction meta" simply doesnt work. And usually worker/soldier can hold anything much longer anyway.
EDIT:Hotel.
 

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
  • Punishments for digging multi Fort Battles and not showing up
So this..

I think there should be warning first (unless the person is infamous of such/similar action) then 5 points & 3 days prevention from digging (idk if that's technically possible) if still continues then 10 points, which equals to auto-triggered 5 day ban..

Still doing same? Well direct 15 points..
I like how you are talking about duells, meantime adventurer class is basically useless in everything, since its scaling with new sets, was the worst xD.
Power-creep be like. It's not only Adventurers but sure, it had the biggest blow.

Well we already wrote so many things about Adventurers and other Classes but they were mainly FF related.
So I just linked the "All-in-One" thread https://forum.the-west.net/index.php?threads/use-the-ifbc-branch-to-test-pvp-balancing.58712 (it has many more links too, like https://forum.beta.the-west.net/index.php?threads/situation-of-the-game.3477/post-36930) on 1st page.

Thing with changing FF related Class bonuses tho.. If by chance Formulas are changed.. They will need another change to adapt the New formulas..
 

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
I will, emphasize this "Suggested Formulas" post, in case it got lost.

I don't claim them to be "perfect" but my calculations gave decent results for the most part.
With some Diggo tinkering they could do just fine.
Damage:
( Weapon Damage + Buff + Sector Damage ) x ( 1 + max(0, (Leadership^0.7 - |MaxHealth ÷ 10 - (Leadership)|^0.6) ÷ 120) )

Edit: Dividing maxHp with something slightly less than 10 will be 'better' by the looks of it.

Resistance:
Resistance Bonus + ( (Skill1)^0.7 − |MaxHealth ÷ 10 − (Skill1)|^0.6 ) ÷ 2

Ps. Remove ÷ 2 if increasing max Character Level. But here's hoping that it won't be increased.

Hit Chance (Attack)
25 + Leadership^0.5 + Aiming^0.55 + (Skill1)^0.6 + Multiplayer Attack + Sector Attack + High Ground Bonus - Distance Penalty

Dodge Chance (Defense)
10 + Leadership^0.5 + Dodging^0.55 + (Skill1)^0.6 + Multiplayer Defence + Sector Defence + High Ground Bonus


These should fix/penalise; "Leadership spam" as well as "everything on Hp" while comparatively rewarding mid-Range Hp Tanks (10-15k) .
 
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wlan-kabel

Reservist
I don´t know how it is on the .net Colorado world, but on the German servers defense is too strong right now with Cortina.
People with Union ^3 gun have over 30 fails and it is impossible to win the attack via shootout. Only flagrun if many defenders are offline and the leader messes up is possible right now.
 

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
Well, on Colorado of .Net we started holding Towers too now and despite the absurd number of real and wannabe Damagers, Attacking became a bit too hard indeed, with quite bad Hit ratios (Well, still not as bad as yours)
Defending side having Union Officers on Towers don't help either, of course. "Everything-on-Hp" build is still quite effective as well.

So a small mistake of Attacking team, be it Offline placement or Online orders, can lead to the extermination of whole Attack team.

But well it's still "new" for us after all these years, so we are trying various Attack plans...


Ps. In any case, Tanks are at a huge disadvantage when they aren't mounted. Can't dodge, can't hit.
 
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lulumcnoob

Staff Sergeant
Former Team Member
We buffed tanks only when they are on towers instead of nerfing damage. These don't achieve the same goals, it just means tanks can no longer hit each other.
I haven't seen a good one or lead an attack though, So I don't really know how defeat-able the towers are with old school focus fire tactics.

Then of course we have proof of the reasons we didn't get further into formula changes, a new set can come out and upset everything when you balance for Livi.
 
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RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
Well, while I appreciate the changes we have, yes, as per usual, we walked around the real issue and made everything Nugget Sets based again.
And there is no guarantee that InnoGames won't screw up Defending by inventing a new OP Attacker set. (Ps. Union Officer users of Defense on Towers are quite OP, while Tombola gear not so much)

I just wish J.Cortina had some "Hiding" as Set bonus though. @Al35ul CM
it just means tanks can no longer hit each other.
Even if they do, it be like tickling :njub:
But yes, Damage is mainly an issue cause Resistance ain't percentage based, so Nugget Bear set makes a huge effect against Tank Damages while barely effect Damagers' ..

Although, as I mentioned, they could use some Diggo tinkering, change the Formulas the way I suggested/intended, so "Spam Leadership" is no longer a thing and hit ratios are slightly bumped up instead, for both Tanks and Damagers. While Tanks with mid-Range Hp are rewarded.

But yea, flat Resist and Damage bonuses will always be an issue.
 

lulumcnoob

Staff Sergeant
Former Team Member
I don´t know how it is on the .net Colorado world, but on the German servers defense is too strong right now with Cortina.
People with Union ^3 gun have over 30 fails and it is impossible to win the attack via shootout. Only flagrun if many defenders are offline and the leader messes up is possible right now.
What's the best German world, I'm trying to look at the battles on Westforts, but they all seem to be small battles.

Edit: well I had a look at your worlds, and my goodness you need migrations into a dedicated PvP world. 10k players for 30 vs 30..... https://www.the-west.de/?page=register&mode=choose_world
 
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voLeMaNe

Reservist
my goodness you need migrations into a dedicated PvP world. 10k players for 30 vs 30
We definitly do! There are one or two worlds where the small forts are filled, but on the other worlds never. But there definitely aren't 10k players.... even with all the lvl 1 players which signed up but decided not to play the world there are less than 600...

In my opinion, the first thing to do is close down old worlds and let the players migrate to a few worlds which are active and therefore much more fun. I see that some players don't like duels and FF but I believe they can coexist with the ones wanting to play PvP and they also profit from an active world. There is a bigger market, more possibility to buy and sell sets etc.

I also know that InnoGames wants to make money off the game and therefore understand that they want to open new worlds, but why do they need so many old worlds? I don't see why this is better than a few active worlds where you have an active PvP game, which also makes it much more attractive to spend nuggets on duel and FF sets. With every new world an old one should be closed.
 
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RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
Kinda off-topic but: https://forum.the-west.net/index.php?threads/world-re-branding.58711
But there definitely aren't 10k players
Well yes those numbers on such pages are misleading. Like here: https://www.the-west.net/?page=register&mode=choose_world

Idk what they really are but my guess is, they are the number of accounts that are still in database. So maybe players got removed because of inactivity but they can come back any time. In other words, they ain't perma-deleted yet.
 

wlan-kabel

Reservist
What's the best German world, I'm trying to look at the battles on Westforts, but they all seem to be small battles.

Edit: well I had a look at your worlds, and my goodness you need migrations into a dedicated PvP world. 10k players for 30 vs 30..... https://www.the-west.de/?page=register&mode=choose_world
best FF world is world 10.

But for large fights, .net is the only way to go :/

And yes. We need more migration but many players play on several worlds and are opposed to it.
 

voLeMaNe

Reservist
I don't think anyone is really playing all the worlds, so no harm done in closing some of them and making the others more populated...

If there is no migration, all the worlds will be dead soon... And IF someone actually has to many accounts he plays with regularly, give him some reward and then one of them has to die (as this will only concern a few players maybe pay back the nuggets spend on this world?).
 

voLeMaNe

Reservist
To these points:
--To me it is tedious and tiresome to look for a suitable person when I am required to duel for a quest [the only time I might initiate duels].
--being dueled by someone looking to KO me = NOT fun [unless they accidentally manage to lose]
--travel time to the duel, then change clothes, and fill up hp = boring and so NOT fun
-- I also hate the wasted time waiting around to see who wins, so I can go ahead and do something else, even if it just to look for another victim to satisfy a quest.
The long search for an opponent wasn't there back in the days when the worlds were filled with plenty of players, with more migration, this problem could be fixed, at least partially.
For the second bullet point, well there's not much to do, you will always be able to do this...
The problem that you lose HP when changing into a speed set is actually fixed with the newest speed set, this has HP as well.

I think another problem is, that skill matters much less than earlier. I remember the fun we had trying to find the optimal skill, testing the different skills etc. It was already mentioned that with the right set it doesn't matter what skill you have... Maybe we could fix this by doubling the skill points we get for each level. I know that this leads to some problems as the difficulties might have to be adjusted. On the other hand, with the sets you can do any work anyways so this might be obsolet...