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Let's talk about Fort Battles, Adventures and Duelling

Al35ul CM

The West Team
Howdy Cowboys and Cowgirls,

Fort Battles and Adventures have both been in the game for a while now and, while some of you might enjoy them as they are, we do know many others would like to see changes to the different aspects of each of these features. As such, in this thread, I invite you to discuss any and all aspects of Fort Battles and Adventures. Discussion topics can include, but not limited to:

  • Fort Battle Ranks
  • Punishments for digging multi Fort Battles and not showing up
  • Ability to give ranks in Awesomia defence
  • Punishments for repeatedly leaving Adventures
  • New Adventure maps
  • Friendly fire in Adventures

Do you have any other aspects of these features you would like to talk about? What do you think about the ones mentioned above? Let us know below :).
 
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pimpa1977

Reservist
Hi There,

Looks like I am the first one to kick this one off...

Rankings
I think the ranking good as it is... Have enough different ranks to be able to give the best one suitable for the players.

Punishments for multiple battles
This one was sometimes a bit of an issue, but I think is not any longer also we have had 1 world where someone for weeks was digging battles, but on that server the cost for this has increased dramatically after the 1st one and within an hour the second one is a huge amount so it has put a stop to it now.

Ability ti give ranks at Awesomia I think is a BAD idea... That could cause a lot of complaints... at the moment if you register late you have more chance to be left out... Remember, that fight is for the rewards so sometimes have 1,5x more registration...

Punishments for repeatedly leaving adventures
There were a time lock out... I`m not sure if its still there, I have not left any adventure before :) But if you do leave it should be a 30 minutes ban for registering again ...

New adventure maps ARE WELCOME :)

Friendly fire
It think that is good as it is :)

I was looking forward to the new fort battle formula, which never got introduced so far... I think that would be a good solution to be able to increase the defensibility of the forts.

There were an idea before to be able to move the OFFies... Get them clime walls buildings etc or move on the map with the attackers... at the moment the fights are very similar each time... the OFFies set somewhere and the online players shoothing from behind them... mostly no movements on any fights... that could give more chance to have new tactics and more enjoyable fights


That is it for now

Regards Pimpa
 

*Colonel*

Private
Fort battles:

1) Experience should be increased. Higher returns on expiernce for dodges/hits taken, because now it is extremely hard to get even 6000 EXP for a tank, while damagers simply need to deal 10k damage in order to get 6k EXP.

2) As @RaiderTr mentioned, pumpkins or etc. as a reward for fort battles. In non-event time, you can bring back Awesomia's with steel lined boxes.

Balance between damage and tankiness is now OK for me after Cortina issued.

Adventures:

1) Either Loot chests items to be improved, or (better option as for me), Outlaw, Bandit's, Bob Dalton, Cooks adventure sets to be improved

2) Higher impact of Fort Defence bonus in adventures, because now it is clear, that attack and damage rules it all.
 

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
Thanks for starting such topic!
And.. This will be a looong ride sooo better buckle up :D

Firstly: "All-in-one" topic with all the related links on : https://forum.the-west.net/index.php?threads/use-the-ifbc-branch-to-test-pvp-balancing.58712
  • Fort Battle Ranks
  • Punishments for digging multi Fort Battles and NOT showing up
  • Ability to give ranks in Awesomia defence
  • New Adventure maps
Fort battle ranks hmm.. Could include more details like some Scripts do: Number of Critical hits & Ghosts etc etc
That includes Ally profile too: https://forum.beta.the-west.net/ind...-discussion.3543/page-2#lg=post-37404&slide=1
Can also use monthly/yearly etc Ranks like Westforts have but not solely based on Damage.

No Ranking (& not being able to put up a topic) in Awesomia always been an issue but providing such would have side-effects too..
There were some creative ideas back in the day but I don't feel like digging for 'em atm as it's not a priority issue imo.

Well I wish there was a PvE map for Adventures.
While doing that tho, must revisit the obsolete/Power-creep friendly mechanics/Formulas.
Balance between damage and tankiness is now OK for me after Cortina issued.
Sadly not a case in .Net :(
I mean.. It helps but.. Too many Damagers and/or "wannabe" Damagers..

Damage formula must be changed and Rewarding should be balanced between Tanks and Damagers before they even think of increasing max Character limit.


Well, this ain't as long as I'd write but it's likely that I'll add more as I go :p
That's said first link has waaay too many things/other links within.
 
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  • Fort Battle Ranks
Imo you should implement an auto-ranking system, where you set requirements which players have to meet in order to get a certain rank. That would for sure help ranking, make things easier for leaders and let's be real, on most worlds same people get same rank everyday. What would requirements be? For example if a player is in town X he gets a rank Y, if a player is above lvl X he get a rank Y it can also work for classes, that certain classes get a certain rank etc. Later you can obviously give people higher or lower rank but the fact that leaders wouldn't have to show up 30mins earlier in order to check who's online, who's offline, who's coming online, who went offline etc.
  • Punishments for digging multi Fort Battles and showing up
Why would you punish multis? First of all, if that's such a big problem then you should invent some kind of ingame mechanic which stops people from digging forts within some hours after last dig (You can obviously turn it off or make the limits lower for new worlds or during events). Secondly, people usually dig multis because they aren't happy with the current state of the game, current situation of the world etc. If it's just a random troll digging these multis he'll pretty soon run out of money and then the councils can still agree to simply ignore these multi FFs. Instead of focusing on such irrelevant problems, which you can easily fix by implementing 1 very simple mechanic you should focus on new formulas and balancing the game.
  • Ability to give ranks in Awesomia defence
Awesomia defences are fun battles where there's nothing to win, nothing to lose and the way game currently looks like people signing for defence are suiciders because attacks almost always win so why even bother with it?
  • Punishments for repeatedly leaving Adventures
  • New Adventure maps
  • Friendly fire in Adventures

Adventures is a mod that's as close to being dead as it gets. There are more berry pickers in this game than there are people playing adventures. When playing on .net sometimes you have to wait for like 30 minutes to get a 3v3 game (gets better during ST night, guess more NA people play it than EU). I doubt you should focus on it considering you guys haven't been able to fix parts of the game that actually interest many more people such as FFs or even quests which lately have been very bugged even when released to normal worlds, not to mention beta where you haven't even been able to start an event with all items in categories where they belong.


For such long time, you guys haven't even implemented any rewards for coming to FFs, even something very small, literally anything that would motivate people. You haven't been able to introduce anything for new players, any experience set, construction set, speed set, product set, anything to make them want to play the game. Imagine a new player joining the game seeing all these new sets, seeing how fast people move, gain experience and then he realizes that thanks to his donkey he's gonna get to marketplace on the other side of the map to get his sombrero he's not gonna travel for 7 hours but for 6 hours and 45 minutes. What's your plan to attract new players? You haven't advertised the game anywhere, you haven't tried to help new players and then you wonder why adventures have such long queues and most worlds can't even fill small FFs.


To sum it up and talk about FFs and the game in general you have a product which was a lot of potential but it's up to you which way you're going to choose. You seem to ignore the issues with formulas where even non-duellers are able to deal like 1600 damage constantly every round, you seem to ignore the issue of damagers being favoured. Oh, actually not. You just released a def tank set, who cares that you can get it during a very nugget-heavy event while captains was available for anyone during an event in which you could easily collect full set and probably even upgrade all the pieces to L1 by simply being active. Who cares that union is still the strongest set released in the game and there never was a tank response to that. You want to increase max LVL to 180 or whatever, guess what? These people that deal 1600 damage per round nowadays are going to hit for like 2k because resistance in the items doesn't scale unlike damage. I'm glad you guys are making changes so that people on dead or new worlds can have fun but look at a world like colorado on .net where you're not even able to hold a single round on point because you have 45 lvl150 duellers shooting at you with either union or upgraded captain and most of them with stacked ap or sp they've gained during few years of playing. Not to mention the things look right now, damagers have the best FF set in the game, damagers got an easier access to the latest FF set and they get better rewards for FFing. Stop focusing on adventures, stop focusing on making money off of new worlds and try to make it fun for veterans which are the only reason this game still exist, because they're the ones buying nuggets between new worlds are released.
 

lulumcnoob

Staff Sergeant
Former Team Member
This looks like my kinda thread. I'm going to talk about the bigger PvP picture including duelling too, and even though you asked about Adventures, they're the one part of the game I have no clue about, because they are an unfinished mess.

There's different problems for PvP (read forts and duels) on old worlds and on new worlds. My experiences are with .NET, so I hope players from other servers post too.
- On new worlds, there's a massive premium gap, often shop clothes vs 2020 power tombola sets. It takes a year to get the players both levelled and geared to create a competitive environment... And then a new world opens and the player-base drops to non-functional levels.
- On old & stable worlds worlds, everyone has a set, but this leads to game breaking amounts of damage in a fort battle, and fort fighters in duelling clothes are almost as good a duellers in duelling clothes, but the main issue is the shrinking player-base and no migrations from the "PvP dead" worlds to reinforce the numbers.

Fort Battles
Damage reduction for very high leadership values
Giving defenders more advantages was good to see, but I feel like Attackers are still expected to win any battle on equal ground. It's a complex issue, so I will diplomatically say that I believe it ultimately comes down to the potential damage output of a team, so I'm sad that we ditched the new formula in testing.​
Rewards
The best way to encourage attendance is to give better rewards than the basic exp/cash/bonds. Battles are stacked at events because you get event currency, they're stacked when Community Managers use their special tool to add something extra to Awesomia battles... We could use RNG for good, create a prize pool for a random drop from fort battles (This actually used to be a feature!), and if you want to go all in on the rewards, a new shop similar to Adventures' VP shop, And of course include PvP elements in "clicky events". Adventurers should get bonds for "ghosting" too.​
Multi-Battles
I think beta has the best solution for multi battles, the cost of a 2nd, 3rd, 4th battle within a defined time gets exponentially higher, and if you want to bankrupt your town to cause havoc, you still have that freedom. Multi-battles are only ever damaging to the quality of the gameplay, and there have been a lot of multi-battle-trolls over the years. Don't even punish them, that is a form of attention, simply make it a non-viable thing to do long-term at a game level - you already have the technology.​
Ranks
What's the problem with ranks? They're fine as they are, and as leader's choice. If I could change anything it would be Auto-ranking criteria as mentioned above a couple of times, but that's a low priority.​
Ranks at Awesomia
We don't need ranks at Awesomia, like at all, make it a complete free for all on both sides. Now if you could Auto-balance or randomise the sides... as in you sign in then are assigned based on what side needs you, then we would be talking...​

Adventures
Punishments
I believe that if you need to make a rule to cover the lack of a game mechanic, you've made a bad product. Automatically time a player out of Adventures for 5 mins the first time, 10 mins the 2nd time, 20 mins the 3rd time, etc. Should you be banned for leaving? well no, there's no way to concede afaik and the game mode is quite often unbalanced.​
Improvements
Bringing the party system that's been on beta for years to general release would be cool. Would it be possible to make adventures Global, like linked across all The West markets?​
Maps
Honestly, I'd prefer development time was spend elsewhere, we had an entire team of devs working on adventures back in the day, and only like 1/5th of the planned content was added - that being a single game-mode, Rush on Tombstone. A new map or game-mode would spice it up, but I don't know if I would even play it.​

Duels
Rewards
Similar to fort battles, I would love it if there was some kind of random reward pool for duels, for small buffs and such and a small chance to drop one. PvP is so far behind spam 15s working on the reward for time spent front, and you have to invest so much into HP buffs and motivation.​
Not enough players
There are plenty of people duelling if you go to the newest world, which has its own problems with nugget-gap, other than that it's totally barren at the top end of the duel levels. Honestly a permanent Classic West world could really cater to this niche dueller market if you can figure out how to monetise it :p

Migrations, International Events & World Specialisations
Migrations
Most of the game worlds I know about don't have an active PvP scene, and if you have a beloved character on there, it feels like you're being held prisoner in a world you can't play. Complimentary to this, the worlds with active PvP need reinforcements from well established characters after the Great Exodus of the Tank classes. You don't need to close down worlds just because they don't have Large Fort Battles every night, but the choice to move somewhere better than 30vs30 mediums on a good day would be nice.​
International
I think the IFBC was a great success, despite forts being broken, I'll sign up for any international PvP event InnoGames organise.​
World Specialisations
We could "re-brand" some of our more active PvP worlds, similar to how a new world is "(recommended)", and open migration routes into those worlds. We could also designate one world as a PvE world, where players can disable being duelled.​
 
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wlan-kabel

Reservist
For adventures :

- serverwide ranking with matchmaking decided by an ELO-system. A Level 149 with an upgraded Lucille´s or deputy chef´s is way stronger than a Level 150 with a weapon from the Gunsmith.
- ability to mute a player in chat
-buffs for the Outlaw´s set and Cook´s set, they are both outdated. Also, some new items in the veteran shop to give some more reasons to play the adventures.
- protection in the spawn zone and maximum damage cap like in the fortbattles so lower level players can´t get spawnkilled over and over again.

Fortbattles :

- make resistance percentage based instead of a flat damage reduction. In the current version, resistance is too weak against high damage duelists and too frustrating for the opposing tanks, because they will not do any damage to someone with Summer Spirits + Cortina.

- Adventurer character class needs a complete rework. The ghosting bonus is too weak for the amount of damage in the game and too unreliable.
Soldier and Worker have been indirectly buffed by the reworked towers / range malus, but the Adventurer has not benefitted from the changes at all.

- Awesomia fort battles should show the number of signed up players in the fortbattle overview.
 

lulumcnoob

Staff Sergeant
Former Team Member
I appreciate the effort Al, but I have to say the things you've mentioned in the OP (other than adventures lacking content) are similar to the magic duel level reduction potion, trying to treat the mildest of symptoms, not the disease itself. Frankly, a proper deep-dive is needed after so many years of neglect and tombola power creep.

They've slowly been updating old sets, which is awesome, keeping this up, cleaning up the early game experience, designing better tombolas and fort battle fixes would present a re-branding opportunity to The-West 3.0 :p
 
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Al35ul CM

The West Team
but I have to say the things you've mentioned in the OP (other than adventures lacking content) are similar to the magic duel level reduction potion, trying to treat the mildest of symptoms
The points raised in the OP are simply examples of what can be discussed in this thread. There is no limitation on the areas of the game on which you can share your feedback and/or opinion :)
 

SisterAbigail

Reservist
Hello there

I'd like to express my opinion only regarding Fort Battles.

Rank system:
It is good as it is, the auto-ranking system would be nice, however it is not as important as other changes. Regarding Awesomia battles, it is just fine without ranks.

Fort battles in general:
At this point with the introduction of the tower bonuses and the new cortina set, I'd say that attacking-defending sides are balanced. Some may argue that there are not enough Cortina sets compared to Captain's, however that is just wrong. You will not be able to upgrade your necklace to level 4, yet there are a lot more horse and weapon sets dropping from the DotD event.

The rewards of fort battles (also adventures) are an issue as well. The aim should be to encourage players to participate in Fort Battles, however 20bonds and 6k exp is simply not enough. A system similar to the adventures' VP system could be introduced with rewards that are worth spending an hour every evening for.

Migration:
In connection with migration, I just don't get the reason behind holding people hostages in dead servers. New servers are also a problem, there is no need for one every year. Yeah sure, they bring the most profit, however it may be more profitable for the company to rather keep the players on playable servers.
 

lulumcnoob

Staff Sergeant
Former Team Member
I actually had a thought regarding ranking, there's a script that lets you rank from the chat, and it's absolutely wonderful, if you're looking for possible new features to compliment fixes. Generally incorporating what the fort scripts can do into the base game would be amazing for everyone, coloured text for leaders, live statistics, shift-clicking a player's icon to paste their name in chat for quick swap orders, the topic being overlaid on the battle map, just more information for leaders and fighters alike.
 
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RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
I'd say that attacking-defending sides are balanced
For your relativitely new National servers with half the Damagers of .Net, and without Unioners, sure.
Some may argue that there are not enough Cortina sets compared to Captain's, however that is just wrong.
You are the one in wrong here..

There will be ton more Captains in xmas too, whereas Tanks will have to pay 234234 nuggets for a Cortina Chest in mid-January or so. (like Vaquero/Cowgirl)
Not to mention, getting that set items from DotD is also with Nuggets.. "Free" cards don't get you anything.

Also worth to mention that Cortina alone isn't enough.
You need the Nugget (Kodiak) Bear set, which is also bought directly via Nuggets and doesn't show up often at all.

I am, quite thankful for such decent Tank set though.
 
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SisterAbigail

Reservist
"relatively new National servers"

Well, there are three Hungarian worlds which are playable, during events we are in big forts, because mediums are too small. The servers are World 1, El Dorado and Florida, World one is obv. the first world, El Dorado opened in 2012, Florida in 2013. So we do have union sets here as well.
I get it that on your Colorado everyone wants to deal damage, however there are more national servers, so you are in the minority here. You are generalizing stuff that only apply to your world, whereas in reality that is just not true.

Yeah, after Christmas there will be more Captain, yet based on the number of Vaquero and Cowgirl sets in the game, I'm sure anyone interested in Cortina set will be able to buy one from a fellow player.

And what do you mean that Cortina isn't enough? Kodiak is great with Cortina, and that is the best combination overall. Yet I wouldn't say that a soldier with 35k hp and 280-290 defense rating is "not enough" itself.
 

bidliz

Reservist
And what do you mean that Cortina isn't enough?
Dude, there will be more Captain, than Cortina. For christ sake, first in your lifetime think about a little bit.

For you maybe, this is "balanced", but not everyone could have the same set for deff and attack, as you or I have. How do you wanna buy at least 50 cortina (just vanilla) sets for your whole alliance? In an almost killed server, what name is El Dorado.

Not just you playing with ff in any server. You have the most op sets for everything, so try thinking a little bit with others mind, who wont be able to get just the half of those stuffs what you have.... and maybe one you will have a clear mind with good ideas.
 

lulumcnoob

Staff Sergeant
Former Team Member
For sure the most important and precious content in the entire game are the other players, most of them can't even get one complete set at a tombola.
 

SisterAbigail

Reservist
bidliz, being personal is fine with me as long as you can express yourself properly in english, so please try to do that.

And as I mentioned, after Christmas, there will be more Captains that Cortinas, however the improved drop rate from DotD means that there will be enough for anyone interested.
 
At first I didn't read all messages above. My main worlds are in .net but I have been around if few national servers. Use to love adventures but after 3000 game those are repeating it self i do find it boring nowadays.
  • Fort Battle Ranks
As it's been said script helps with ranking a lot would be nice to have some of those implemented to game.
if you decide to improve adventure class there could be sniper rank who shoots before generals or moves before shooting.
also it's can be handy at times if we can get "fort battle General" hat in town so they can rank in defenses without giving a black hat.
  • Punishments for digging multi Fort Battles and not showing
This is game feature that should be available but something can be done on excess attacking when only purpose is to annoy other players.
There is good system on fr. server where cost to initiate a fort battle is multiplied by x8 if there is other battle in 3 hour window. If there is no other battles cost is the base one.
For example, attacking a large fort if 2 other battles have already been initiated during the previous 3 hours will cost you 10,000 x 8^2 = $ 640,000.
System on beta server is similar but I think price is too high (don't know exact cost of second and third battle?)
  • Ability to give ranks in Awesomia defence
Nice to have feature, not in high on my priority list. We all have managed to play those battles without ranks and topic.
  • Punishments for repeatedly leaving Adventures
Current system is fine maybe add little more cool down up to ~ 15min for first dismiss?
It's people who don't play with someone causing problem. I'm not sure if we need to see who is in your team? So hide the players at lobby maybe just show skills what they select. ...oh and remove chat at lobby state there are so much insult that can't be reported cos those are posted at last seconds before chat closes.
Rather focus on punish those that leave/don't move during game. If you get kicked from game cos of inactivity you will give you 24hours cool down.... or something.

someone mentioned groups we have here on beta when these was implemented to game for first months there was fixed team for 3 hc adventure player who could win any game. It was't fun for anyone else and certainly didn't help other players to enjoy the game. I don't personally like idea of fixed teams. New players could use maneuver like simulation to get use to adventures, this is something where you could invite players from others worlds and fix teams.
  • New Adventure maps
Yes pls anything. One with more areas to capture (4-6) in total would be nice and bring me a Bear.
  • Friendly fire in Adventures
This can be problem, but it can be also really important strategical feature when capturing buildings next to opponents. Easy fix is to make it similar to ff when you can't shoot your team. But If you can track friendly fire given in normal ground? and punish on that. I do believe that's most harmful when someone is just camping or chasing their our team mate around map.
 

RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
so you are in the minority here. You are generalizing stuff that only apply to your world
Minority my axx
I'm talking of all .Net.

But yea Colorado is the most consistent of all servers of .Net and it's not new so it gets the mention.
And what do you mean that Cortina isn't enough? Kodiak is great with Cortina, and that is the best combination overall. Yet I wouldn't say that a soldier with 35k hp and 280-290 defense rating is "not enough" itself.
Read again. Nugget sets.
Don't see Captain costing any. And still powerful enough to counter all Nugget Tank sets, lol.

I assume you either a Damager or very rich person not minding spending thousands.
Or you are just clueless/ignorant of this game.

290 defense where? ST of course.
Not to mention, to reach that Hp u will need to remove the Nugget Bear and it will cost you so much Resistance.

Now do please tell how much Attack Damagers have on their own Towers.
I'm sure anyone interested in Cortina set will be able to buy one from a fellow player.
And be able to upgrade to +3 like Captainers, sure.
Pay or beg, nice feature for Tanks.

Oh btw I'm sure they will get Nugget Bear set from "fellow players" too :D


You won't be able to fool anyone into accepting that the game isn't favoring Damagers..
 
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