1. Howdy partner! You seem new here. Why don't you make an account and join the discussion? You can register here.
    Already have one? Then you login here!
Login button here

Job Accidents no longer provide duel protection?

Discussion in 'Version 2.04' started by zweig, May 13, 2013.

Share This Page

  1. zweig

    zweig Guest

    in our german forum some player (holla d. waldfee) mentioned, that the job accident knockout no longer gives the 48h duel protection, which joony confirmed with the reason they "thought" it would be better in consideration of the higher danger of the job system.

    so i searched for this quite dramatic change in the changelog, but it's not there. reason?
    this kind of "backdoor-change" without listing seems like you know it will piss of many players, so you want to avoid mentioning it and let players find it out themselves when its too late. this, my dear InnoGames people, sucks big time.

    let me tell you, i am by far not the only one that uses the job knockout to make the game not suck for their current gameplay targets.

    let me give you a "real world" example: i was a dueler for years, but now i am no longer interested in duels, and with a duel level of over 430 and a full construction-build the only way to have fun in my own town and not be fisted every 2 days and giving away free exp, is to knock myself out with accidents.
    i dont want to be the bitch of some stupid-ass (from my point of view) lowlevel duelers who think they can do everything they want with me just because i am no longer interested in lottery duels.

    i am by far no player to cry havoc at every little change that comes with updates like others players, and i have no mercy with whining pussy-constructors at the beginning of new worlds that are farmed, because there where options to protect themselves from beeing farmed.

    but now you take us this option to protect ourselves without even making it clear. and that, as i said, sucks. maybe you can rethink this and rewind your "thought-it-would-be-better" decision.

    thanks for reading and sorry for the badwords.
     
  2. melkon

    melkon Guest

    While I agree that this was not properly mentioned in the changelog, I still think the change is reasonable. Killing themselves at a job to not get dueled just seems to cover the actual issue - give the player the opportunity to not get dueled while enjoying the benefits of being a town's member (especially the social component).

    Here's my question which might open up a useful discussion:
    How would you give players the possibility to join cities (and thus adding the social component) without the fear of getting dueled all the time? How would you encourage people to accept the fear of getting dueled? Some kind of high risk / high reward scenario?

    Please keep in mind that to not completely remove the duel-aspect of a city. There still should be enough targets for other duelers, even if you are not a dueler yourself and even if you actually don't want to get dueled. The West still has to be a dangerous place.
     
  3. Diggo11

    Diggo11 The West Team Dev Team

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    5
    Main Server:
    EN
    This was a simple mistake, it has been included now. Thanks :)
     
  4. futurama1001

    futurama1001 Private First Class Wiki Contributor Former Team Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    7
    Main Server:
    In addition to what melkon said, I don't think it's fair that players are able to keep their bounties under constant protection due to never being able to be duelled.
     
  5. Bluep

    Bluep Guest

    Why do you want to force non-duelists to duel?
    Do you fill up every fort battle randomly with unprepared players?
    Do you enqueue high risk jobs for unskilled duelers at random?
    No to both of them. But you want to force every player into the role of a weak sparring partner for duelists?

    Do you realize that this social component is the main reason - more than ever since I play TW - that keeps people playing the game...?
    Basically you're saying those who don't want to get dueled should leave town? Well, it's only a small step towards leaving the game then - without the communication, without fort battles, with rarely any new challenging quests. Why would YOU still play TW then..?

    Believe me, The West is still a dangerous place, even without duels. Job accidents, fort battle faints, frauds (InnoGames-legalized) at the market; and on the other hand, when you refer to the "real" West having been a dangerous place - if every gunslinger would have shot down every citizen, every worker... the USA would nver have started to exist, America would be the world's greatest graveyard instead of the world's greatest nation.
    (And if you contradict yourself now and claim it's just a game, not reality - why shouldn't it be possible then to skip that aspect for players who don't want to focus on it?)

    And by the way, this discussion would be obsolete if the problem of zero-EXP duels would have been solved in time. I really don't mind to get ambushed once in a while, but if the same players are allowed to farm me over and over it's killing every fun aspect. (And I think this is the main reason why so many players seek a controlled faint by a job accident at the moment.)
     
  6. futurama1001

    futurama1001 Private First Class Wiki Contributor Former Team Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    7
    Main Server:
    You can still KO yourself when it suits you by duelling somebody, this is just as easy as doing it with a job and the only difference is that you aren't exploiting the fact that you can remain protected from a bounty that has been placed on your head.
     
  7. melkon

    melkon Guest

    Let me phrase it a little bit different: the change regarding the job-ko is reasonable if there would be another possibility to avoid duels - apart from leaving the town. I totally agree with you regarding the social aspect of a town and I was not encouraging people to leave one, but I asked (and still am) for your input regarding duel protection / avoidance when you're a member of a town.

    If you make it an opt-in feature, then there might be not enough targets for other players thus I was asking for some high risk / high reward element to make people join - generating more targets.
    If you would keep it as it is now (joining a city makes you duelable), do you have any idea on how to give players the possibility to protect them from duels from time to time to not get farmed over and over again?

    In general I'm just asking for different views on how to tackle this issue in game-design way. The job-ko feels like a hack and I'm interested in hearing your opinions on how to implement it properly.
     
  8. Diggo11

    Diggo11 The West Team Dev Team

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    5
    Main Server:
    EN
    For this situation specifically, an idea may be to reintroduce protection from a job ko but only so long as you have no bounty on your head, similar to how townless players with a bounty are duellable.
     
  9. futurama1001

    futurama1001 Private First Class Wiki Contributor Former Team Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    7
    Main Server:
    Another idea would be to alter the 1 hour cooldown that exists between back-to-back duels now so that the length of that cooldown depends on how long it's been since the target last initiated a duel. For example, if I've duelled somebody earlier that day, the current 1 hour cooldown would apply. If I've duelled someone in the last week, the cooldown might become 6 hours. If it's been longer than a week, then you can only be duelled once a day by a particular player.

    These numbers are of course just examples. It may also be complicating things too much, and perhaps a more simple approach of 1 hour cooldown if you've initiated a duel in the last week, x hour cooldown if you haven't would be more effective.
     
  10. zweig

    zweig Guest

    just leave it as it is. it worked fine for five long years. nobody complained about people protecting themselves. i dont see this as a "hack", its just the normal way people found out to be useful.

    i remember times before 2.0, where the job system was not even close to this "danger-level", where transporting ammunition with 93% danger just scratched you. the danger level had a whole other meaning iirc. at that times, people used quest npcs for ko-ing themselves, because normal npcs didnt exist and never gave protection in the first place.

    with 2.0 InnoGames gave these people an easier way with the bigger accidents, if done on purpose.

    even if not taken into account by InnoGames, i would appreciate a way of "buying out" of the 48 hours non-dueling, maybe for 20 nuggets or something like that, if duelers happen to knock themselves out at a job and dont want to wait 2 days.

    the other way around, buying protection for nuggets would fuck things even more up then they are now. especially when you take this 5-year-long "feature" and then present a "fix" with an premium option.

    even if one naked duel every 2 days is not counted as pushing, i dont want to give away free exp. that's just unnecessary in my dueling level range.

    sounds very good.
     
  11. Bluep

    Bluep Guest

    ...and you can't offer a bounty on people who are currently in protection?
    Then it seems to be a quite good idea. Otherwise, it would make no sense, if your attacker-to-be just has to offer a new bounty to push you out of protection...

    But at a second glance, this sounds somewhat complicated again - making a second rule for offering bounties (besides town membership); and you would need a third rule to check if the recently fainted person has initiated any duels in a certain time before the KO; it mustn't be that a nasty attacker saves himself from revenge bounties by passing out at work...

    As zweig already noticed, there's the problem of free EXP for your "victim". And more important for me, I don't want to destroy my town's duel statistics with such activity.

    @melkon: This "hack" is only being [ab]used because there exists another "hack" that's even more in fashion - zero exp dueling.
    Instead of inventing any complex mechanisms like opt-in duels which brings along some new problems as you've already mentioned;
    Instead of replacing one makeshift solution (the current 2.03 pass-out protection) with another makeshift one, either take care about the source for this constant need of protection, or just leave it as it is.

    Sorry, I can't announce The solution - I only can say that the current change is far worse than the previous abuse. (Well, not for a certain kind of duelists of course..)
     
  12. Snr Sarg

    Snr Sarg Lance Corporal

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    26
    Main Server:
    Duel protection from a job KO was never meant to be re-introduced in the last version, it's a bug that people are taking advantage of, and it needs to be removed.

    Why anyone thinks they should be protected from dueling by KOing themselves on a job is beyond me.

    If you want KO protection, duel somebody until you get KOed, problem solved, it's what I do with my non-dueling characters.

    And with the new job system, there will be no further need for an 'all-jobs' build, so you can all throw some more points towards duel skills without impacting on being able to do jobs or quests.

    If you choose to put those points into HP for fort fighting, then you make that choice, live with it, don't whinge about getting dueled.
     
  13. zweig

    zweig Guest

    you do realize that this "bug" was there for the last five years? it could have easily been fixed if it was such of a big deal. it wasnt. nobody complained.

    before version 2.0 the job accidents where far from being as dangerous as now, so you didnt get knocked out so often.

    but it was possible nontheless, so get your facts straight please.
     
  14. Snr Sarg

    Snr Sarg Lance Corporal

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    26
    Main Server:
    erm, no it wasn't, you were not able to KO yourself on jobs prior to 2.0.

    I have confirmed this with the mods several weeks ago, who also confirmed it was a bug that was scheduled to be fixed.

    So, get your facts straight please, people doing this to avoid bounty hunters is like a damn epidemic at the moment
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2013
  15. futurama1001

    futurama1001 Private First Class Wiki Contributor Former Team Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    7
    Main Server:
    The bug was that it allowed you to stay protected from bounties, not the duel protection itself. Though the fact that you can get duel protection from something completely unrelated to duels does seem almost like an exploit to me.