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Insane power creep in damager sets

Harsha.1

Private First Class
Union set clothes total bonus:

1599581868341.png

Phoebe's set clothes total bonus:

1599582047718.png

Captain's set clothes total bonus:

1599581926203.png

I'm not sure if many people here realize the full potential of the new "captain's set" - it has the same leadership/aim as union, and significantly more hiding. Most people who brought union didn't upgrade it. But, with the better drops of items in oktoberfest, it will be quite easy for any dueler to get L2 Captain's clothes to use for attacks alone, and that would pretty much have a greater long term impact on battles than union. Defenses will pretty much become even more unviable (if that's even possible).

Compare that to

Zapata set total bonus:

1599581985238.png

Station manager's set total bonus:

1599582117269.png

Basically, there's not much improvement at all between tank sets from 2020 versus one from 2018. The Captain's weapon set like the clothes have a massive amount of SP overall, but on the other hand, the station manager's animal set is pretty much garbage.

I'm aware this problem has been pointed out in countless forum posts in the past, but in a way, I feel that the captain's set just takes it to even more ridiculous levels. Next year, we'll probably have some set like Captain, but with lots of setting traps to be used for defenses. Innogames started a process to reform the damage formula, but so far, the concrete changes on the ground seem to be moving in the opposite direction with power creep in damager sets with no corresponding improvements in tank sets. In the long term, this would only lead to worse battles, fewer people playing and fewer people actually spending in the tombolas.
 

*Colonel*

Private
Union set clothes total bonus:

View attachment 299

Phoebe's set clothes total bonus:

View attachment 302

Captain's set clothes total bonus:

View attachment 300

I'm not sure if many people here realize the full potential of the new "captain's set" - it has the same leadership/aim as union, and significantly more hiding. Most people who brought union didn't upgrade it. But, with the better drops of items in oktoberfest, it will be quite easy for any dueler to get L2 Captain's clothes to use for attacks alone, and that would pretty much have a greater long term impact on battles than union. Defenses will pretty much become even more unviable (if that's even possible).

Compare that to

Zapata set total bonus:

View attachment 301

Station manager's set total bonus:

View attachment 303

Basically, there's not much improvement at all between tank sets from 2020 versus one from 2018. The Captain's weapon set like the clothes have a massive amount of SP overall, but on the other hand, the station manager's animal set is pretty much garbage.

I'm aware this problem has been pointed out in countless forum posts in the past, but in a way, I feel that the captain's set just takes it to even more ridiculous levels. Next year, we'll probably have some set like Captain, but with lots of setting traps to be used for defenses. Innogames started a process to reform the damage formula, but so far, the concrete changes on the ground seem to be moving in the opposite direction with power creep in damager sets with no corresponding improvements in tank sets. In the long term, this would only lead to worse battles, fewer people playing and fewer people actually spending in the tombolas.


Captain's set is absolutely OK while union is overpowered.

Here are some notes for you:

1) Captain's set is something between phoebey and murrieta, while being better than these two only if you attack.
2) for defense captain's is much worse than phoebey and murrieta
3) Union is much better than these two both in attack and defense.

So where did you find insanity? Or you are simply the one who seeks how to blame devs?
 

lulumcnoob

Staff Sergeant
Former Team Member
Captain's set is absolutely OK while union is overpowered.

Here are some notes for you:

1) Captain's set is something between phoebey and murrieta, while being better than these two only if you attack.
2) for defense captain's is much worse than phoebey and murrieta
3) Union is much better than these two both in attack and defense

So where did you find insanity? Or you are simply the one who seeks how to blame devs?
I personally think the issue is with another easily attainable damage set for attacks, when the biggest problem with battles is high damage in attacks and relatively weak defence sets. Union is great for both, but very hard to obtain/initially locked behind a paywall.
We can't blame the devs because they don't decide what content gets added to the game, they just implement it.
 

Harsha.1

Private First Class
Captain's set is absolutely OK while union is overpowered.
I'm not sure if many people here realize the full potential of the new "captain's set"
Exactly my point.

1) Captain's set is something between phoebey and murrieta, while being better than these two only if you attack.
2) for defense captain's is much worse than phoebey and murrieta
Your logic is seriously flawed. In FFs, I use Zapata for attacks and Station for defenses. Similarly, duelers will use Captain for attacks and Phoebe/Mur for defenses. Same way we use Musical cowgirl set for attacking in duels and Highlander for defending in duels. Just because Cowgirl is weaker in duel defense doesn't stop it from being considered OP.

The thing to understand here is, Phoebe set has X number of skill points that are spread among traps/aim/ld/hiding. While Captain's set, with the same X number of skill points are concentrated in aim/ld/hiding. In a sense, this is a "focused" approach. For better performance in anything, it's always much better to use specialized sets rather than ones seeking to cover multiple purposes.

3) Union is much better than these two both in attack and defense.
If you have bothered to do the math, you'll notice that Cap's has roughly the same aim/LD as union and gives 254 more points in hiding over union's set. That translates to roughly +10 extra attack bonus, which compensates for Captain's lack of set attack bonus. And, that is for the unupgraded set. Unlike union, which costs real money, most people will easily get L1-L2 Captain's set, thus making it much stronger. Now, maybe 5-6 people on a side might have union, but now imagine 30 attacking duelers all with upgraded captain's set. If you have a good imagination, you will be able to understand how this set might be considered to be more OP than union, mostly in terms of it's overall impact.

As for defenses, I pointed out in my post that if the present trends continued next year, another damager set, like Captain's, but with points in traps, not in hiding can be released. Then people will have easy access to sets rivaling union for both attack/defense.

So where did you find insanity? Or you are simply the one who seeks how to blame devs?
My initial post was based purely on empirical facts, those facts, which it's quite plain you haven't spent any time considering. My post was not to blame, but was advocating for balance. I would ask you to give all these facts proper consideration before throwing around illogical accusations like that.
 

*Colonel*

Private
Exactly my point.



Your logic is seriously flawed. In FFs, I use Zapata for attacks and Station for defenses. Similarly, duelers will use Captain for attacks and Phoebe/Mur for defenses. Same way we use Musical cowgirl set for attacking in duels and Highlander for defending in duels. Just because Cowgirl is weaker in duel defense doesn't stop it from being considered OP.

The thing to understand here is, Phoebe set has X number of skill points that are spread among traps/aim/ld/hiding. While Captain's set, with the same X number of skill points are concentrated in aim/ld/hiding. In a sense, this is a "focused" approach. For better performance in anything, it's always much better to use specialized sets rather than ones seeking to cover multiple purposes.



If you have bothered to do the math, you'll notice that Cap's has roughly the same aim/LD as union and gives 254 more points in hiding over union's set. That translates to roughly +10 extra attack bonus, which compensates for Captain's lack of set attack bonus. And, that is for the unupgraded set. Unlike union, which costs real money, most people will easily get L1-L2 Captain's set, thus making it much stronger. Now, maybe 5-6 people on a side might have union, but now imagine 30 attacking duelers all with upgraded captain's set. If you have a good imagination, you will be able to understand how this set might be considered to be more OP than union, mostly in terms of it's overall impact.

As for defenses, I pointed out in my post that if the present trends continued next year, another damager set, like Captain's, but with points in traps, not in hiding can be released. Then people will have easy access to sets rivaling union for both attack/defense.



My initial post was based purely on empirical facts, those facts, which it's quite plain you haven't spent any time considering. My post was not to blame, but was advocating for balance. I would ask you to give all these facts proper consideration before throwing around illogical accusations like that.
Well if you count so well, why do you use zapata and station's sets at all? Try Livingston and maybe then you will be less critical regarding the captain ;)
 

Harsha.1

Private First Class
Well if you count so well, why do you use zapata and station's sets at all? Try Livingston and maybe then you will be less critical regarding the captain ;)
I have 4 tank characters - 1 uses zap/SM (+ Liv animals), 2 uses full Livingston, 1 uses courtier. The purpose of mentioning zap/sm was to describe how people might use different sets for different purposes - a point you still don't seem to have comprehended.

In any case, if you genuinely think Livingston is "sufficient" for tanks, then you either play mostly as dueler class on all your worlds or play as a tank on a world with no serious duelers shooting at you and you haven't experienced 4k crits.

I'll be happy to revisit this issue after oktoberfest/Xmas by when the Captain's set has become mainstream and people have upgraded their sets. Then you can tell me if the captain's set is "absolutely OK" :D
 

*Colonel*

Private
I have 4 tank characters - 1 uses zap/SM (+ Liv animals), 2 uses full Livingston, 1 uses courtier. The purpose of mentioning zap/sm was to describe how people might use different sets for different purposes - a point you still don't seem to have comprehended.

In any case, if you genuinely think Livingston is "sufficient" for tanks, then you either play mostly as dueler class on all your worlds or play as a tank on a world with no serious duelers shooting at you and you haven't experienced 4k crits.

I'll be happy to revisit this issue after oktoberfest/Xmas by when the Captain's set has become mainstream and people have upgraded their sets. Then you can tell me if the captain's set is "absolutely OK" :D
Funny to see your guess regarding what I understand and play. You better stop this as such way of thinking only interferes in real life. That's a free tip for you ;)

Actually I play as "serious shooting duel" and a serious tanking soldier. When I see someone tanking in zap/sm, that's just a poor boy for 1-2 rounds tanking.

So coming back to captain's:

1. damage bonus per sector is useless if at least one person in sector has the same set or provides higher damage bonus.
2. comparing to "free" phoebey, it gives slightly more leadership, same amount of aiming and 2 times more hiding, while 4.5 attack points less. Actually, this extra hiding will convert in missing attack points.
3. Summing up we have a set which gives slightly more damage sector bonus than murrieta and ~same hit chance. Which makes Captain better than phoebey only in one case - when you attacking and stay in a sector without damage bonuses by other players. That situation is extremely rare for duels.

4. Your turn
 

Harsha.1

Private First Class
I wrote two long posts with mostly empirical data - in your second response, you picked out a single fact, that I was using zap/sm instead of liv in counter to the several other points I raised. Then in your third post you throw out some random stuff without bothering to directly respond to what I said in my first two posts.

At this point, I feel you are arguing for the sake of arguing rather than engaging in any constructive discussion. Since you're so big on giving out advice for real life - that sort of thinking and general attitude won't take you very far there either.

PS: There are many perfectly good tanks that use zap/SM, Your preference for liv is your personal opinion, much the same way as in the past some tanks used hombre rather than pizzaro. To claim your specific way of doing things is the single correct way is a sign of arrogance.
 

Harsha.1

Private First Class
To everyone else, I had some time this weekend, so sat down and calculated the precise battle stats of both sets. For the following calculations, I used phoebe weapons for both as the focus is comparing captain's clothes to union clothes (union weapons still remain the best by far)

Union clothes + Mur animals + Phoebe weapons

1599925990245.png

Captain's clothes + Mur animals + Phoebe weapons

1599925924944.png

Captain L2 + Mur animals + Phoebe weapons

1599926054865.png

*Didn't do union L1 as only a select few have upgraded the set that far
**All use viewfinders as buffs

The conclusion from this data is that Captain's clothing set is quite close in terms of stats to union set in attacks, and when you upgrade Captain's clothes to L2, it's actually better than union set (in attacks). This is very significant - because you can now essentially get a free set and it's can be considered as good as a nugget set,

In IFBC3, we all saw how duelers wearing Murrieta were capable of wiping out defenses with 1 million+ HP and only rarely did any team win a defense. With the addition of a damager set specialized for attacks, the disparity between attacks and defenses is only bound to become worse, As a result, battles will essentially become predictable, with teams winning almost all of their attacks, taking away the fun unpredictable aspect of FFs.
 

asdf124

Private First Class
If you have bothered to do the math, you'll notice that Cap's has roughly the same aim/LD as union and gives 254 more points in hiding over union's set. That translates to roughly +10 extra attack bonus, which compensates for Captain's lack of set attack bonus. And, that is for the unupgraded set. Unlike union, which costs real money, most people will easily get L1-L2 Captain's set, thus making it much stronger. Now, maybe 5-6 people on a side might have union, but now imagine 30 attacking duelers all with upgraded captain's set. If you have a good imagination, you will be able to understand how this set might be considered to be more OP than union, mostly in terms of it's overall impact.
Actually, union is more powerful than captain. What the person in charge failed thou is actually giving tanks a breather of a set that could about 20-30% less powerful than union since it would be in events. The current mechanic hardly is 50% less impactlful than union ever was.

The hiding bonus gives about 9(8.9609406897938316374489092111819) while union has more attack(12 not upgraded) versus 3.55. So for attacks you get a 0.55 advantage(for captain) so far without the other bonus(aim/leadership) which is also in unions favor. How its easier to upgrade which would probably negate any union user for attacks if the player can manage about level 3 captain cloth set.

Compared union set versus captains weapon set and got a 1.25 advantage for union without the leadership/aim bonuses. (which are also in favor of union set)

I get why harsha doesn't want more damager set atm, wish they made this set for next year's easter event and had a tank set this event. Or simply had both a captain set, and an actual tank set that would be as impactful as union in the same event.
 

Beef

Reservist
4. Your turn
bahahaha
all this post was basically inventing things to say as an argument because you're obviously smarter than us and we have no idea how to play this game
i don't really know who you are and neither of these people probably do, but your arguments are extremely bad and just for the sake of posting em

let me tell you a cool story:

Once upon a time, I stumbled across a tournament named International Fort battle Championishp. At that point, I dealt 60k dmg with the murrieta set, in a presumably official SMALL fort battle that had almost perfect builds (that under no possible circumstances will ever happen on an official server, where people have way worse builds)...do you have any possible idea what would've happened with a set like captain's?


poor harsha tried to explain to you that everyone will upgrade this set to at least lv2. that is way more than accessible to everyone
on a certain world on .net sometimes we have 40+ duelers on attack side...if all of them will have captain set, that's gonna be a pretty nice view and a really good presentation of the state of the game, right?

all the GOOD players in this game say that this set is op...what makes YOU say different?


you know what's the attack value difference between phoebe ann mosey clothing set and captain set? i can tell you if you're not good enough with maths too

your turn




LATER EDIT, ON TOPIC THIS TIME
i did my own maths and it's mostly the same as harsha's

you people need to understand that this set upgraded even to level1 is better than lv0 union set ( we're talking about the clothes of course), even if it's attack wise, for a normal set that is insane
for anyone interested i can show an excel sheet that confirms that
just who in the world makes these decisions at innogames? i really want to know... it's just shocking, surreal

way to go InnoGames
 
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*Colonel*

Private
To everyone else, I had some time this weekend, so sat down and calculated the precise battle stats of both sets. For the following calculations, I used phoebe weapons for both as the focus is comparing captain's clothes to union clothes (union weapons still remain the best by far)

Union clothes + Mur animals + Phoebe weapons

View attachment 307

Captain's clothes + Mur animals + Phoebe weapons

View attachment 306

Captain L2 + Mur animals + Phoebe weapons

View attachment 308

*Didn't do union L1 as only a select few have upgraded the set that far
**All use viewfinders as buffs

The conclusion from this data is that Captain's clothing set is quite close in terms of stats to union set in attacks, and when you upgrade Captain's clothes to L2, it's actually better than union set (in attacks). This is very significant - because you can now essentially get a free set and it's can be considered as good as a nugget set,

In IFBC3, we all saw how duelers wearing Murrieta were capable of wiping out defenses with 1 million+ HP and only rarely did any team win a defense. With the addition of a damager set specialized for attacks, the disparity between attacks and defenses is only bound to become worse, As a result, battles will essentially become predictable, with teams winning almost all of their attacks, taking away the fun unpredictable aspect of FFs.
bahahaha
all this post was basically inventing things to say as an argument because you're obviously smarter than us and we have no idea how to play this game
i don't really know who you are and neither of these people probably do, but your arguments are extremely bad and just for the sake of posting em

let me tell you a cool story:

Once upon a time, I stumbled across a tournament named International Fort battle Championishp. At that point, I dealt 60k dmg with the murrieta set, in a presumably official SMALL fort battle that had almost perfect builds (that under no possible circumstances will ever happen on an official server, where people have way worse builds)...do you have any possible idea what would've happened with a set like captain's?


poor harsha tried to explain to you that everyone will upgrade this set to at least lv2. that is way more than accessible to everyone
on a certain world on .net sometimes we have 40+ duelers on attack side...if all of them will have captain set, that's gonna be a pretty nice view and a really good presentation of the state of the game, right?

all the GOOD players in this game say that this set is op...what makes YOU say different?


you know what's the attack value difference between phoebe ann mosey clothing set and captain set? i can tell you if you're not good enough with maths too

your turn




LATER EDIT, ON TOPIC THIS TIME
i did my own maths and it's mostly the same as harsha's

you people need to understand that this set upgraded even to level1 is better than lv0 union set ( we're talking about the clothes of course), even if it's attack wise, for a normal set that is insane
for anyone interested i can show an excel sheet that confirms that
just who in the world makes these decisions at innogames? i really want to know... it's just shocking, surreal

way to go InnoGames
What I want to say is that you guys exaggerate overpower of captain.

Just take a closer look on what Harsha showed: Captain L2 is ~7.5 attack points higher than union officer, while damage is ~30 lower. These attack points are just 4% increase of attack, while 30 damage is ~3% decrease of damage. Now just imagine it in practice:

With standard 30 aimed shots per 55 round battle, these attack just gives you 1 more shot, while damage decrease gives you minus 30*30= 900 potential damage. SO finally if average damage is 1300 per shot, you will deal 400 damage more per battle in CAP L2 than in UO set.

So what you guys call insane overpower is 400 more potential damage per complete 55 round fort battle.

Well actually that one additional shot can be a 4k crit, but that is too random, some battles you deal 1 crit per 55 rounds, sometimes you deal 15 crits. But we can calculate it on mass: assuming 10 dulers per attacking team, 2 of them will probably deal a crit. Let's assume maximum: crit 4k damage. Summing up, we have 4000 + 4000 + 400*8 = ~12k maximum extra damage per whole attacking team.

Besides, those who already have UO set, aren't likely to upgrade captain on LVL2. Also, I don't know how it is on other domains, but at .ru there are generally 3 duelers both in attack and defense who can afford themselves having LVL2 set, while others normally use LVL0, which makes "overpower" effect even lower.

P.S. Harsha, if you can compare Captain L2 and Phoebey L2, please do it. In new worlds there is no UO sets, and the impact of captain, therefore, can be higher. But as I told, it won't be that much higher.

P.P.S.

all the GOOD players in this game say that this set is op...what makes YOU say different?
simply, I don't trust the opinion of the majority. I am from Ukraine, that's a good country to understand how the majority is generally wrong.
 
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Zulus

Private
I don't trust the opinion of the majority. I am from Ukraine, that's a good country to understand how the majority is generally wrong.

This is the best arguement i have seen the whole year.

So because i am a citizen of Tuvalu, small island country with the total population of less then 15000 people where majority is generally right, does that mean i should believe and agree with everything that the majority here agrees with?

The answer is NO because irrespective what counrty i live in and irrsepctive whether majority of people are generally right or wrong, i make up my mind about something based on facts rather then on trusting or distrusting the majority of Ukraine.

Funny enough, in this particular case, i could not agree more with Harsha and Beef.

The facts are cristal clear. We are talking here about the effect Captain set will have on attacks only. Suddenly we may have 30-40 upgraded Captain sets on attacks instead of having had 5-10 Unions on attack and all this when we still dont have any sufficient defence set that can come close to competing with Union and additinally with Captain now as well.
 
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*Colonel*

Private
I don't trust the opinion of the majority. I am from Ukraine, that's a good country to understand how the majority is generally wrong.

This is the best arguement i have seen the whole year.

So because i am a citizen of Tuvalu, small island country with the total population of less then 15000 people where majority is generally right, does that mean i have to believe and agree with everything that the majority here agrees with?

The answer is NO because irrespective what counrty i live in and irrsepctive whether majority of people are generally right or wrong, i make up my mind about something based on facts rather then on trusting or distrusting the majority of Ukraine.

Funny enough, in this particular case, i could not agree more with Harsha and Beef.
Offtopic alert:
Well, I know nothing about Tuvalu except the fact that it is somewhere in the ocean. I can write a wall of text here describing my words, but it doesn't worth time spent. What you can't deny is the fact that the country you live/lived in, affects your mindset.

The core idea is that if all people agree with something, that looks for me much more suspicious, than a situation where at least an opposite opinion exists.
 

lulumcnoob

Staff Sergeant
Former Team Member
It's fine to play devil's advocate, @*Colonel* :)
It's your only contribution to this thread that I've agreed with.

And in National comparisons, I'm Scottish, so I'm used to our best interests being overruled by the political elites, who have no idea what life is like for the regular people. Works well for InnoGames and their playerbase here on The west.
 
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Beef

Reservist
i guess everything i wrote in this post was for myself, mr colonel. you simply don't comprehend how much more powerful union set is in comparison with phoebe ann or murrieta. after that you don't realize that even lvl1 captain is BETTER than lvl0 union


you have no idea what this set can do with the extra attack value that it has in comparison with phoebe. it's just obvious from what you're writing here.


we'll see how tanks will hold any tower at all according to your hilarious calculations :D
at least bother doing them correctly, or i can do them for you
 

lulumcnoob

Staff Sergeant
Former Team Member
Imo the exact strength compared to this damage set or that damage set is irrelevant. What matters is we're getting another damage set, when massive damage is what's causing fort battles to be un-enjoyable at all levels, from privates to leaders, and I think there's been no uncertain terms in which the community and community managers have tried to convey this to the elites at InnoGames who clearly don't play the game.

The fact that this is an easily attainable, therefore easily up-gradable, set and it is comparable to the best existing set, a set so strong relative to Tank sets, that in fact we removed it from the International Fort Battle Championship, and it's designed exclusively for the side that's already far too strong is shameful, however.

How do we, the fort fighting community, actually communicate this to the game's management, if they haven't gotten the point already?
We don't. They know and chose to do this anyway because leaderships are the biggest whales in the game and we exclusively cater to them at the expense of not just all other classes, but the entire game balance. Disgusting.

Tanks are still just the play-thing for premium leadership characters, and I predict a continuation of the current tank-class exodus as a result of this further mis-management from innogames. Great work.

PS: @Beef Tanks can't hold towers at the moment, even a 6k advent is a massive risk, such is the scale of the damage problem, so I believe that is a moot point. An interesting point would be that the people who design these sets don't understand the significance of a 6k advent being unable to hold a tower and then ignoring the feedback about it. #IgnoGames
 
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Beef

Reservist
my point was that instead of fixing the damage problem, they just do exactly the opposite and give nugget power to a free set that virtually everyone can get...not written directly but you can understand it if you think about it a bit and read what i previously said.
that and the added fact that some people don't understand yet (myself included before i made the calculations) that this set is extremely dangerous for the state of the game that is not the best anyway. but no, some anonymous player comes and tells me that i exaggerate and this set has 12k extra damage per team in a hypothetical game :lol:

"P.S. Harsha, if you can compare Captain L2 and Phoebey L2, please do it. In new worlds there is no UO sets, and the impact of captain, therefore, can be higher. But as I told, it won't be that much higher. "
and then he says this, like it's not obvious already that the difference is just enormous :lol:

at this point i lost all faith in those game "designers"...i play only dueler on every server i play but this is just too much
 
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RaiderTr

Staff Sergeant
It's all pointless now..
They perfectly know the issues (especially after IFBC) but don't let the only Dev to fix 'em.

I've used +0 Union (against +3 Mosey's) as Soldier on Event server even and got Top Damage few times. Didn't even need to be Dueler/Worker.
But yea who cares?!