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Duelling Changes Part II Feedback

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Angel Elite

Private
Remember your own advise Xshteff. We want useful and constructive answers, not useless comments. :mad:

This is a test server, yes, but to test something properly, we need proper information. Which we haven't gotten. Treating the players this way is only good for one thing, getting even more people to leave the game (which of course could be the hidden agenda).

And why even test duels? Dueling was effectively killed when the "Duel To Lose"-phase started. Remove that, wait until the event is finished, and try again, any data collected while people duel to lose would be considered corrupt data, as they don't duel to win. :hmpf:
i totaly agree with this
 

The-Iceman

Staff Sergeant
Well put Ahram +++

xShteff's responses to my posts always reflects his dislike for me :D
 
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xShteff

Master Sergeant
Former Team Member
Remember your own advise Xshteff. We want useful and constructive answers, not useless comments. :mad:

This is a test server, yes, but to test something properly, we need proper information. Which we haven't gotten. Treating the players this way is only good for one thing, getting even more people to leave the game (which of course could be the hidden agenda).
As far as I know the dueling formula was never published yet that never stopped people from making up dueling builds and setting up new metas. You are just looking for reasons to justify your lack of (dueling) activity.

Also, he requested an answer and I gave him the answer he was looking for. The KO periods will go back to normal whenever we receive enough data confirming that the current dueling formula is the best one for the game.

Here's all the information you need: There's currently a new dueling build live, we would like to know what do you think about it, and how it could be improved.
And why even test duels? Dueling was effectively killed when the "Duel To Lose"-phase started. Remove that, wait until the event is finished, and try again, any data collected while people duel to lose would be considered corrupt data, as they don't duel to win. :hmpf:
I didn't ask you to test anything. I just asked you to not complain about changes that were made to help people test whatever the current objective is.
 

Angel Elite

Private
As far as I know the dueling formula was never published yet that never stopped people from making up dueling builds and setting up new metas. You are just looking for reasons to justify your lack of (dueling) activity.

Also, he requested an answer and I gave him the answer he was looking for. The KO periods will go back to normal whenever we receive enough data confirming that the current dueling formula is the best one for the game.

Here's all the information you need: There's currently a new dueling build live, we would like to know what do you think about it, and how it could be improved.

I didn't ask you to test anything. I just asked you to not complain about changes that were made to help people test whatever the current objective is.
And this is exactly the reason why i don't like you you are totaly blind for any feedback when its getting hot under your feets you say someone else did it
You prove this by your respond to ahram
 

PaPa PoPCoRN

Lance Corporal
Feedback:

Aim 440 - App 220
vs
Dodge 60/70 - Tactics 30 (My estimation of my opponents skills - Collins)

Opponent still managed to dodge 3 rounds when aiming at arms - I still believe there's too much luck with stance/dodge - Stats like the one above should provide a yield or 7 or 8 hits per duel (imo) - I experimented over 5 duels (with the same stance) and only hit 7 rounds in a duel once.
 
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Ahram

Private First Class
As far as I know the dueling formula was never published yet that never stopped people from making up dueling builds and setting up new metas. You are just looking for reasons to justify your lack of (dueling) activity.
To properly test a formula, we need to know the formula. Scientific testing 101 :up:
My dueling activity ended when someone got the "brilliant" idea of experience loss for losing, and gave birth to the "duel-to-lose"-losers. You can't have valid data when people duel with the intent to lose. The very core of a duel should be to win.

Also, he requested an answer and I gave him the answer he was looking for. The KO periods will go back to normal whenever we receive enough data confirming that the current dueling formula is the best one for the game.
You didn't provide a constuctive and/or useful answer. Also, for proper data validation, you need a set timeframe, otherwise it is too easy to just keep going until you have the result you want.

Here's all the information you need: There's currently a new dueling build live, we would like to know what do you think about it, and how it could be improved.
Actually I lack lots of information: Timeframe, the duel formulae, criteria for success, criteria for failure, minimum number of data-set needed, etc.

I didn't ask you to test anything. I just asked you to not complain about changes that were made to help people test whatever the current objective is.
I did not complain, I simply pointed out that your answers didn't fill your own criteria. And I gave my response to the current test: Useless with DTL-phase active.
 

Diggo11

The West Team
Dev Team
Feedback:

Aim 440 - App 220
vs
Dodge 60/70 - Tactics 30 (My estimation of my opponents skills - Collins)

Opponent still managed to dodge 3 rounds when aiming at arms - I still believe there's too much luck with stance/dodge - Stats like the one above should provide a yield or 7 or 8 hits per duel (imo) - I experimented over 5 duels (with the same stance) and only hit 7 rounds in a duel once.
Thanks, somehow it managed to get disabled on zz1 only (strange), I reenabled it.

To properly test a formula, we need to know the formula. Scientific testing 101 :up:
You don't need to know the mathematics behind it to see the results and offer feedback. In the end it needs to stand on its own two feet in the court of public opinion and not under scientific scrutiny.

You didn't provide a constuctive and/or useful answer. Also, for proper data validation, you need a set timeframe, otherwise it is too easy to just keep going until you have the result you want.
You might not think it's useful but it's the right one. We have no clue how many iterations of changes it will take until we're satisfied the formula works as we'd like.
 

Ahram

Private First Class
We have no clue how many iterations of changes it will take until we're satisfied the formula works as we'd like.
Admitting that InnoGames have no clue what they want, that can't be easy. :blink:

Not that I am surprised by it.

Just look at the way low motivation duels are being handled. With one hand, minimum motivation is raised to 10%, while the other hand grants the ability to lose the gained duel-experience by losing duels, effectively ensuring status quo, while damaging the overall image of dueler, since now they "all" lose on purpose.

The removal of the job-KO is another "great" idea, and the number of people without town increased as result, because dueling to lose is for losers, and not a viable option to many questers, fortfighters and builders, that used job-KO earlier, and those that whined about the low number of targets, keeps on whining.

Put an end to the "duel to lose"-phase, and start listening to the many good ideas posted here and on other forums.
 

Diggo11

The West Team
Dev Team
Admitting that InnoGames have no clue what they want, that can't be easy. :blink:
We know what we want, we're just not so arrogant as to think our plans to obtain it will be a success first time, every time. Before you ordered a dose of scientific rigour and in depth consideration of player feedback, now in the next breath you're complaining we don't have predetermined results so we can adhere to a rigid schedule of your convenience -- which is it?

Just look at the way low motivation duels are being handled. With one hand, minimum motivation is raised to 10%, while the other hand grants the ability to lose the gained duel-experience by losing duels, effectively ensuring status quo, while damaging the overall image of dueler, since now they "all" lose on purpose.

The removal of the job-KO is another "great" idea, and the number of people without town increased as result, because dueling to lose is for losers, and not a viable option to many questers, fortfighters and builders, that used job-KO earlier, and those that whined about the low number of targets, keeps on whining.

Put an end to the "duel to lose"-phase, and start listening to the many good ideas posted here and on other forums.
Compromise is a wonderful thing, hey? ;)

If that is what you believe then it is clear that you have never actually been (or at least are not currently) a dueller of any kind. It is no secret that the reason there were so many zero motivation duellers to begin with was that experience duelling was completely infeasible, with one of the biggest problems being the ability to push your duel level far too high without recourse. It's likewise no secret that zero motivation duellers strive for massive win-loss ratios, to the order of thousands of wins to fewer than a hundred losses, and won't so easily give that up. I won't rehash the whole thing here; it's off-topic and there's been plenty of other threads where the full reasoning has been explained. I ask you divert any side discussions to those. Before you do, though, you should really actually talk to a few duellers (such as Helen) before you claim to speak for or about "all".
 

Ahram

Private First Class
Compromise is a wonderful thing, hey? ;)
It is, but I'd prefer ZMD's over DTL anyday, at least they duel to win :blink:

DTL is bad for a lot of reasons, mostly because it just goes against the core of dueling. But it also makes duel-stats worthless. Since you can't see how many wins are from DTL attacks, and do you lose because you are overmatched or on purpose?

People don't create as many rewards as earlier. Why put a bounty on dueler when there is a real risk that the player will just DTL?

I was a dueler, but stopped when DTL started, and closed down three servers at the same time, how is that for increased activity?

As for the "all" part, I don't claim to speak for all.... but for a bad image, you only need one.

How does "duel game where people duel to lose" sound to you? It is true about The West right now, because you have something to "gain" from losing, even if it is just a small part of the duelers that do it.
 

Magnadine

Guest
It is, but I'd prefer ZMD's over DTL anyday, at least they duel to win :blink:

DTL is bad for a lot of reasons, mostly because it just goes against the core of dueling. But it also makes duel-stats worthless. Since you can't see how many wins are from DTL attacks, and do you lose because you are overmatched or on purpose?

People don't create as many rewards as earlier. Why put a bounty on dueler when there is a real risk that the player will just DTL?

I was a dueler, but stopped when DTL started, and closed down three servers at the same time, how is that for increased activity?

As for the "all" part, I don't claim to speak for all.... but for a bad image, you only need one.

How does "duel game where people duel to lose" sound to you? It is true about The West right now, because you have something to "gain" from losing, even if it is just a small part of the duelers that do it.
DTL dueling is not something new. Many FF'ers and other non duelers have used (and are using) DTL duels in order to get KO'd and gain duel protection. The recent dueling updates made DTL dueling somewhat popular amongst former ZMD's as well.

IMHO the duel level mechanism isn't working as intended and never has. Some duelers will always be looking for ways to exploit it so they can continue to duel non duelers instead of actual duelers.

Maybe it is time to abandon the duel level mechanism entirely and try something new. Just allow players to duel everyone that is within their level range. To protect non duelers you can increase duel protection from KO's based on how long ago they initiated a duel themselves. This would mean that duelers would be mostly dueling other duelers and that there is no incentive to DTL or duel at low motivation.
 

poprocker

Private First Class
I've always thought that it should be allowed only to duel people in our duel skills range : for instance if one has 1,500 duel skills he/she should only be allowed to duel people who have between 1,000 or 2,000 duel skills (numbers can be adjusted with a formula like duel skills multiplied or divided by a reasonable factor) ;)
 

The-Iceman

Staff Sergeant
Whoa

I asked how much longer the 8hr/24hr duel cool downs were going to continue and I couldn't get a straight answer
These changes were imposed over a month ago and that's enough time to collect data on over 30,000 duels based on 1000 duels a day
It would take months to analyse that much data, so why hasn't the cool down been reset to 24hr/72hr
I suspect it has something to do with bolstering the shop sales for buffs
 

Hobie

Private First Class
i would just like to see any change to the game play that either will bring players back or keep the ones we have. this game literally feels like its on life support
 

lulumcnoob

Sergeant
Former Team Member
Yep, I like it, but I still take a lot of damage as a shooter against resisters, need to heal after every duel.
 

PaPa PoPCoRN

Lance Corporal
I am taking a few more hits too but I am also hitting a lot more consistently so I don't mind the trade off, it's better than having 200AP and 550 SP + gear at your disposal and getting a 0-0 result.
 

lulumcnoob

Sergeant
Former Team Member
So my last piece of feedback is that melee duelling with the collin set is amazing, and you can beat it with high shooting (but you take a lot of damage, so even if you didn't pay for the collin set, you'll be paying with health buffs).

I guess that unless there will be anything substantially new to test in the coming week(s), it would be nice to have 48 hour KO's back so we can get on with other things.
 
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