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Changes to Premium Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Version 2.10' started by Diggo11, Jun 17, 2014.

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  1. Diggo11

    Diggo11 The West Team Dev Team

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    I just used it on Amchitka and appear to have all six bonuses. (Specifically, I looked for character bonus, greenhorn and higher income.)

    The current interface doesn't really allow for a style like that, plus I would be surprised if this decision was not made on the basis of significant analysis, but I think this would be a very sensible system. It is something I will mention though :)

    Do any of the suggestions here appeal to you, or is it just something you would never consider in general?

    What would you say is a fair speed bonus for the price?

    Yes, one knockout, which consumes the item.

    1 nugget/bond = $1k is a fixed conversion of the entire premium shop, so difficult to change. To begin with, is the price also right in bonds/nuggets?

    I am not sure if this item is really meant to have bonds as a currency, I will have to double check. Raising the bonds ceiling to something like 2100 is still a possibility, but I doubt it would ever be possible to buy that except for during a sale ;)

    Yes, unfortunately, the price of premium is a separate issue that isn't on the table for discussion. It is determined based upon internal analysis, not arbitrarily, that we cannot possibly comment on without access to these figures and stats. While I welcome discussion on other aspects of the changes, unfortunately I have nothing to add here, so I would politely ask people focus their efforts on things within our control :)
     
  2. Cienfuegos

    Cienfuegos Guest

    well, first things I thought when I saw the new premiums and UPB items

    -tent: I don't see the point in buying one unless you can use it forever, price is 25000$ or 25 bonds/nuggets...If it has only 1 use, ingame price is way too high, I can go to the closest hotel and pay 250$. If you buy one, and use it forever, then bonds/nuggets price is too low, for only 25 bonds/nuggets you have something as good as the hotel adventurer bonus with premium. If the tent is permanent then the bonds/nugget price should be rised. I would consider making the tent having a certain number of uses before it breaks

    -Indian anti KO necklace: I agree with what has been said, if the 48 hour penalty can be removed just like that it gives a lot of advantage to 0 mot. duellers...Instead of removing completely the 48 hours penalty maybe you could consider reducin it, for example, if you use 1 necklace, you only have a penalty of 36 hours instead of 48

    -New premiums: I find the insurance quite useless, I'd never buy it alone, only as part of the VIP (complete package) bonus. As stated before, nobody usually walks around with too much cash, if you feel unsafe you can always use a foreign bank and save more than using the insurance. Then again, for 10 nuggets you get to deposit all your money without taxes, so losing so much money with the insurance doesn't make a lot of sense to me

    On the other hand, the speed bonus is too OP. I think it's not a recent issue, but master saddle's buffs have been quite pointless for a long time, with the indian set and a good horse you may cross the whole map in 2 hours or less, you can cut down the travelling time by half with nuggets, the UPB has the turtle thing for super fast travells and usually all the tombolas give away some eggs or oats that cut down the travelling by 25%...Personally I've never had to use a master saddler's buff because I was already fast enough, or I had other means to be faster. I think if you take a look around worlds and servers, there are way less master saddlers than any other profession

    Adding the speed premium would only increase this problem...personally, I'd change the function of the master saddler to other kind of buffs, like luck ones (only the circus clover leafs exist now), or some kind of resistance buff for fort battles, or even small temporary boosts on money or experience gained in jobs and duels and battles

    Besides the master saddler's issue, there is the duellers, who would be able to attack anyone within minutes, the gold jobs...I think a speed boost is always nice, but it shouldn't be too much

    the bags: I think the energy and motivation are quite nice, is something everyone can save up for and the benefits are quite balanced, as it only gives a small daily benefit. The nuggets bag also seems nice, but easy to loose benefits as it's nearly impossible to use it exactly every 24 hours. I think it would be nice if there also existed a bonds bag for 2000 bonds.

    Finally, I think that all the bonds thing benefits too much the fort players, as they usually get more bonds than anybody else. Maybe some kind of bonds re-balancing would be nice for workers, crafters, duellers, etc...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2014
  3. Gaensegeier

    Gaensegeier Guest

    instead of reduce the speed buff, why not change the dueller charbonus? delete that he can duell between 30mins radius, and give him an other bonus, or maybe just delete, charclasses are not realy balanced to each others, noone liked to be workerclass. so i think if u just delete it, duellers still will be a strong char and the problem with speedbuff and dueller charpa is gone
     
  4. fariseul

    fariseul Reservist

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    many of the changes you want to implement, are somewhat useful, but do not get return game. I want to note that here, many players are investing real money in the game. diversification options by investing money on useless things, it is not a viable option. removing the option to reskill against 25 nugget on another form, more expensive through various potions, again not convenient. the game will become more static, especially as many have done missions and pass either the fort or the duel.
    tent-as long as you find cities everywhere, and $ 250 is extremely handy, and has no benefit. just like entertainment to try it once.
    necklace-yes, attractive. gives me the opportunity to give a few hours sleep either in town or in the fort.
    three bags, yes, for those who can afford, but this is debatable. prices are too high. Comparing the pay-effect is not very efficient to invests.
    I know it is quite difficult to find solutions to streamline the game, in terms of investing the money, but that does not seem too've been very happy solution. draws me to spend money by diversifying and convenient prices.
     
  5. Petee

    Petee Sergeant Elite Tester

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    • I would not mess with KO in the case of a duel at all; it's an important part of the game mechanics, pretty much the only way you can strike a player so that it leaves a hurting wound, at least for some time. If you allow premium players to avoid that, they are pretty much invincible to PvP interaction (the worst that can happen to them is one more lost duel in the stats). The result will be a boring game.
      • I would not oppose some sort of premium KO resistance in case of job damage, fort battles or NPC duels. I think it still might be interesting enough, as if you don't include normal duels, you can be a bit more generous (50 nuggs to save myself from a job KO, no way).
    • The Insurance premium is uninteresting whether it saves any % of the money at hand in the case of a knock out, because the probability of being knocked out while having a significant amount of money at hand is, as is was said, very low. If you decide to keep it, after some time I would really like to see the list of people who actually bought it. :) If you would like to keep the number of long timer premiums, then what about faster natural regeneration of energy and HP?
    • I really think I see your point with the nugget bag and I approve - for a temporary investment of 2250 nuggets, the player can get them back with 750 more for free, if they stay active - you are thus making them commit to keep playing the game actively for another 100 days. A time during which they are very likely to spend more than 750 nuggets anyway. Nice thinking, game designers. :)
    • As for the speed, I didn't try it yet, but it looks to me like it should really be +2300% of the game's weird speed %, not *24. The maximal speed of a typical lvl60+ player (with a good horse and indian's set) is above 600%, so with the premium, the player would be only about *5 as fast. But still, that's really a lot...
      • Also, somehow I just don't like the general idea of a premium like that. What about replacing it with some golden train ticket - if you have it (still a long time premium), you can travel by the (hopefully still) upcoming trains for free and with a highest train level, not accessible to players without the premium.
    • Lastly a note about visual design - the window for buying premium should provide some good indication of where and what for can the nuggets be spend. I think some link at least to the UP shop's long timers tab should be included.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  6. HelenBack

    HelenBack Private First Class

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    Yes, it would be bad for ZMDs (if there is no penalty)... but also for fort fighters. Why should they be allowed to die in a battle, KO themselves... and get full Health for the next battle? I can see this one being abused big time!

    This one needs to be reconsidered. The rest aren't waving any big red flags... I'll take a closer look when I have a chance.
    :)

    Oh, quick thoughts:

    - The one for insurance... If you get knocked out... Yes, keep all the money that you would have had after the dueler takes his cut. So the dueler gets his/her usual 1/3rd... and you keep 2/3rds. Maybe have it go directly to the Bank?

    - Speed... 2300% is a lot... make it 500% max. That's one of the continuous buffs. I don't think it should be too high. Although then it wouldn't be the Greenhorn speed... you'll have to rename it to something else. Maybe Rent-a-Stagecoach? Or a Train Ticket? lol

    I would also like to see the 3/14 day options payable by Bonds to give non-payers a chance to try it out... maybe they'll convert to Nugget buyers.

    Oh and the Enchanted Nugget Bag... That can be bought with Bonds? But the Bond limit is still 2000... and it's 2250.

    Okay... really gotta run now.
    :p
     
  7. Connie

    Connie Guest

    Reset skills potion not working after update... In shop shows 20 nuggets, but when I try to buy it costs 1000... :blink:

    ...ohh and Christopher parade set from Breaking in horses and Granite mining still don't drop... :S
     
  8. Diggo11

    Diggo11 The West Team Dev Team

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    These are the last I will answer tonight (sorry Petee), at the lovely time of 3:30 AM. Tomorrow I will check back again, and hopefully noone strays from this thoughtful discussion while things have the opportunity to change :)

    I was pretty confused about the tent when it was first proposed too, but I presume it is intended for those working in the middle of the map, who are not within close distance of a town or fort. (Well, I guess they would be if they zipped around at 2400% speed, but still :P)

    So to be clear, besides the duel protection aspect, noone has any worries with the rest of the concept?

    I take your point about walking to a foreign bank, unless you are walking in the middle of the map, but at least I would think the long timer options are more cost effective than 10 nuggets a pop...?

    I take all of these points onboard, good analysis. The same question as to some others though -- would you have a suggestion for a better value?

    If other people like the suggestion too, I will raise it.

    The potions are slightly cheaper, or will be once the shop bug is fixed.

    See reply to previous poster.

    Two of them are permanent, so I would personally hope the price is high, since I am not quite convinced we should have such things be particularly common.

    If you have any suggestions for us, we would be glad to hear them :)
     
  9. Morphy

    Morphy Staff Sergeant Elite Tester

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    I just tested the indian rite and you'll get your energy and health restored but you can't avoid the 48 hours. So that's a good thing. Furthermore.. the tent.. 25k for one sleepsession? Really?
     
  10. HelenBack

    HelenBack Private First Class

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    So the "dreaded" ZMDs are not a problem... The issue is with the Fort Fighters being able to KO themselves and get full Health AND duel protection... Then go to a battle within minutes of the last battle. They earn plenty of bonds to do this constantly.
    :rolleyes:

    Agreed... The price is way too high. A Luxury Suite at a foreign hotel is only $250...
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  11. The greenhorn premium will damge all saddlers...

    Their speed buffs will be out ranged and the market trade will be destroyd...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2014
  12. Very good point
     
  13. Cienfuegos

    Cienfuegos Guest

    Thank you for the insightful answer Diggo

    About the tent and the middle map...maybe that was the tent's purppose; I've noticed that around the central sector there are lots of cities in every world I play because people have already tried to sort this out, from Awesomnia to the closest city it only takes like 5 min with the indian set...But without more info on the tent (does it break or lasts forever) I can't say more, I'll buy one tonight to see how it works

    EDIT: just read Morphy's post...The tent is too expensive for a single use

    About the indian necklace: personally yes, the duel protection is my only concern. If you are KOed you can already use a mate tea and some liquid life to resume your game in 10 minutes, so adding a strong consumable thing to replenish both life and energy on the spot wouldn't be a big deal

    EDIT: again, Morphy tested the necklace and it doesn't remove the 48 hours penalization, so no issues for me here anymore. Fort battle players can already buy liquid life (75% of life) for 36 bonds, with minimum planification they pretty much can KO themselves and attend a fort battle with full health within a very small time range

    About speed: rather than giving a fixed number like 500% or 200%, I'd make it travelling time based like some of the speed buffs are (I don't know if this is possible). I'd have this premium work as a permanent oat or easter egg, the ones that say "active waytime shortening X%", that way everybody would still try to get the fastest horses and the best clothes, I also think it would be more balanced at low levels

    For example, compare two level 20 players, both riding donkeys and no special clothing; one has the speed premium, the other doesnt, and both have to cross a whole county (east-west). If the premium gives +500%, the premium player has +525% and makes it in roughly 20 minutes; and the other one has 25% and takes over 1 hour to arrive posing a huge disadvantage to the non-premium player. Speed becomes less important whith levelling and clothing, so the gap isn't so big for higher levels, but it really matters for low level players...That is the purppose of the greenhorn bonus afterall, to give new players enough speed to do and try whatever they want without waiting.

    I'd have the speed premium be a permanent "Active waytime shortening 35%", or multiplying the players current speed by 1'33 (a third faster than non premium players)...If you want a fix number, I'd say around 250% to 300% which would be noticeable but not overwhelming, leaving space for speed buffs and stuff

    Finally, about the insurance...sure it is more savy than the insta-deposit for 10 nuggets, but it still feels quite useless, at least to me, because usually the loss isn't so great if you end up KOed, and there are plenty of ways for avoiding that, also (maybe I'm lucky who knows) i seldom end up KOed, unless I'm the one looking for it to take a break from duellers. It feels like a small game helper which right now costs too much, for the benefits it gives I'd only pay 15 to 20 nuggets
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2014
  14. lulumcnoob

    lulumcnoob Sergeant Former Team Member

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    Positives

    The “long-timer” premiums are great, being able to pick how long you want your premium to last for, and different cost options allows non-premium players that get their nuggets through daily logins to activate some premium options for a short period of time, such as for an important fort battle, or to increase their luck on jobs to find nice, shiny things.

    VIP-bonus premium is nice and convenient.

    Energy and Motivation bags, I like these. It gives people that hit 2000 bonds something worthwhile getting (in other words, not a chest).


    Negatives

    2300% Speed bonus. Wow. Saying that this needs some balancing is an understatement.
    I can travel to anywhere on the map in under 2 minutes, I can duel anyone from anywhere on the map if I am a dueller. It's just wrong and I would like to see the speed bonus reduced massively, and have a limited number of uses. In which case, I could just get a Master Saddler to make me some speed buffs and everyone is happy.

    Indian rite necklace needs some balancing too, it's far too strong. I saw a couple of suggestion for reducing the KO time slightly, which I think is a much better way to make this premium. The only way to deal with a dueller camping your town is to knock him out in a duel, now he can just buy this and get back to camping.
    I've never complained about duellers camping me before, but if this leaves beta, I think I would be a little more than upset.

    These two items seem to have been designed purely to get people to spend nuggets, and not someone that plays the game and cares about the impact these will have on worlds, and how that ever-widening gap between premium and non-premium players makes the game less fun to play for everyone that doesn't pay to win.


    Neutral

    Insurance - I would never buy this unless it was as part of the VIP package. It could be useful, but not often enough to warrant a 50 nugget price tag for 2 weeks, gimme character premium for another fortnight instead.

    Tent - I don't see these ever being used by anyone as they are now, completely pointless when a 5 star hotel costs you $250 and a tent costs $2500 for no additional benefit.

    Enchanted nugget bag: Paying 2250 nuggets to get 3k nuggets back... but really slowly, and I have to remember to click on the bag every day. What? Why?

    tl;dr, some new things that I like, some new things are not worth buying and some new things are too strong and will ruin the game.
     
  15. dublik

    dublik Reservist

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    The VIP Bonus for 3, 14, 90 or 365 days looks good, i have nothing bad to say about it

    Tent - why was a thing like this even added to game? whats the point of it? I can simply find nearest town, get there and sleep just for $250... It should be deleted or change the price (from 25k to 250$ :rolleyes: )

    Indian Necklace - just for 50bonds/nuggs it can and would be abused by many players... maybe raise the price? :eek:
    They will KO themselves and buy the necklace and what happens? Full hp and energy and they are ready for next fortbattle or next bunch of 15s jobs

    Motivation bag, energy bag - useless for me, better craft some buffs that gives motivation and energy...

    Enchanted nugget bag - not useful for me as i do not buy nuggets but spend 2250 nuggets to get 750 more? and you must be active (online) everyday to pick up your reward? :blink:


    Thats it from me, lets see what will happen :whistle:
     
  16. fariseul

    fariseul Reservist

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    Diggo, I start from a simple premise. how much more run at a comfortable price, the more profitable. Considering, however, that there is a world almost static, except a few events, attracting new players and fostering existing ones you can not do just a few chests sets and a mission and, more recently, with some products that are quite expensive and even wrong choice. we, the hardcore game, we settle for what it is, but we are not fully satisfied. I have some ideas about how it should be diversified offer, but that I will tell you in private. leave me a few days and I'll send you some ideas. can will be useful in perspective.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
  17. Jarema 27

    Jarema 27 Private

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    My feedback:

    -

    Greenhorn premium is far too good,it's almost like Ground rocket turtle shell for two weeks...

    Motivation bags - ratio of price to profit is not very temptating...


    +

    VIP bonus - Nice thing for premium players.

    If new price of Reskill Potions are not a bug,then it's a brillant idea.
    I've dropped game on 3 worlds because I had no interest in continuing game with the same skills,flexibility may attract players,if one is bored with fort battles ,he doesn't have to pay 200k $ or few hundreds of nuggets for reskill,he can just choose another profession and after some time he will come back.Really great idea :)
     
  18. Hobie

    Hobie Private First Class

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    tent, i like the cash option,. but think it needs to be a permanent item for that price. maybe just a 1 hour cool down timer to keep it from being abused to avoid duels. But might also cut back the need for the job KO and allow for more duels.

    The premium bonus medals, I'm glad to finally see the longer ones offered

    greenhorn bonus is nice in concept, but it is way too fast. when you start a world without gear, skills, and a horse its great, because other wise lots of players would quit during the tutorial. But giving it to level 120-150 etc will have the opposite effect and make the game way too fast paced. True, could help increase duel amounts and these new items combined as a whole might increase the amount of daily FF's, but just seems way too over powered and could create a core loss of current players.

    the indian necklace seems like it would be abused, but the truth is you can already buy energy for 18 nuggets then items from the shop, so its no worse then the current system. The real problem is that bonds can be used, allowing free players to level faster, which sounds great, but it lowers the value of the nuggets spent by pay players. so either the nugget's value is about to see some inflation or this needs some reworking, like bond cost is much higher

    the nugget, energy, and motivation bags are fine, but i would like to see the bonds removed from the nugget bag. One the cost is past the max amount of bonds, but more importantly if there was a sale and it was sold for less than 2k bonds, the rewards of up to 3k nuggets is far too great for just 2k bonds.

    Insurance seems useless

    and the VIP bonus i am a bit unclear what it does. is it just all premiums rolled into one purchase?
     
  19. Bluep

    Bluep Guest

    ..I'm somewhat confused about that Greenhorn speed buff.. an SPEED in general
    Normally I have 665% speed with my travel clothes; atm I use a saddle pommel, so +100% = 765%

    Now I bought that Greenhorn Prem, and I have a speed of 9065% :blink:
    so that's +8300% (or factor 11.85)...

    Just tested: completely naked (and with babble fish) I have 2500%, so that's right - 100% base + 100% pommel + 2300% PA

    .. now I've used up the pommel, my speed is now 8715%, so losing that 100% pommel buff gave me a 350% overall loss...
    Who can solve that riddle for me?

    Edit: Solved by J. Doc Holliday in the post below, ty!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2014
  20. Kimbo1

    Kimbo1 Reservist

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    Regular working KO will still be possible?

    Where is the sense to put Items into the Union Pacific Shop worth > 2000 Bonds? Either the limit to save Bonds will be increased, or the prices will be reduced.