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Altering fort battles

Discussion in 'Polling' started by Diggo11, Mar 15, 2013.

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Which change would you most prefer to see made to the fort battle system?

Poll closed Mar 29, 2013.
  1. Increasing the attack and defence bonuses provided by fort skills

    55.1%
  2. Reducing the HP of high strength players

    18.4%
  3. Increasing the HP of low strength players

    6.1%
  4. Other

    20.4%
  1. Diggo11

    Diggo11 The West Team Dev Team

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    Votes are PUBLIC, you can only select ONE option.

    If you select other please explain why in this thread :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2013
  2. lulumcnoob

    lulumcnoob Sergeant Former Team Member

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    I think most classes have pretty specific roles in fort battles, especially if they are skilled for forts; Soldiers are the tanks that take the hits, Advents can hold a sector on their own, Duellers do massive damage... and workers just fill up the numbers.
    Even a dueller who isn't particularly skilled for forts can do pretty well with aiming and dodging.

    Individual players and their bonuses are not the issue, the problem is when one side becomes stronger than all others in terms of HP and onliners at battles. This happened on Alamogordo, one side simply has way more hp and the other has given up. I have no idea how this can be balanced other than pre-determining the teams to make them even...
     
  3. Diggo11

    Diggo11 The West Team Dev Team

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    Whatever the outcome, class balance is definitely something we'll have to look at. Say the developers increase the fort skill formula from x^0.4 to x^0.5 for example. Do we increase the bonuses provided by the buildings too? Do we nerf the worker class fort bonus?

    But yes, the only way to achieve perfection is to line everyone up at the start, which is obviously a very, very, very unlikely feature at this stage.
     
  4. Bluep

    Bluep Guest

    ..I've chosen the 1st option.

    Basically I think dumping the ^0.4 formula for the bonuses and making it linear with skill points (as it is for HP) would be a great progress.

    But that would put the low level players at a (too) big disadvantage, so perhaps a
    Code:
    bonus = (sum of relevant skills) * constant / level 
    would be an option.
    A fully fb-specced level 120 player will still get better bonuses than a level 20 player, but only factor 4-5 instead of 400+ (taking only the levelup AP/SP into account); I think the main reason for introducing the ^0.4 formula was lowering this level factor....

    (Inventing an additional "fort battle health" by using a similar exponential function is complete nonsense imho; and limiting HP in general is bad too - just think of a a character who wants to survive at least one duel by having some more HP than an average dueler can do as damage)
     
  5. lulumcnoob

    lulumcnoob Sergeant Former Team Member

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    I don't know anything about the numbers behind forts, just that x number of skill points gives x amount of bonus and that hp means you can take hits for days. The system now gives players who have chosen to be skilled purely in fort battles a decent advantage over someone who chose to be a ranged dueller or a pure trader, for example, which kind of makes sense.

    What exactly is wrong with the current class bonuses? I don't fort enough to know what to complain about, and I still thing the main problem is balanced sides. I go to forts here because they give decent Exp and are my main source of bonds, other than the 2 bonds a day from duelling. Can something be done like additional rewards for attending fort battles to encourage players to go to them, and to do well at them increasing their reward?
     
  6. girafi

    girafi Guest

    I think the balance of characterbonusses is good. There bonusses are well balanced and every classe can be defeated by an other classe.

    I would rather see new maps where you can hide behind some coachwagons or something like that. New maps with water on the map etc.
    Maybe the defending team can set traps (new building for forts?). This will have more tactics and the fort battles won't be the same every dag :)
     
  7. olga

    olga Master Sergeant

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    It is especially the soldiders - who now has too much advantage over the other classes at the moment . I would prefer that battles was for all players - not just for soldiers- and that you would have greater advantage - when you had a team - with equal number of players from all for classes.
     
  8. Diggo11

    Diggo11 The West Team Dev Team

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    That's quite an interesting idea :) We will have to gather some data about fort battle builds and compare this to the old formula, see how it compares in practice. To be truly honest, any first attempt to alter the formula would very likely be by tweaking the current formula to use more than 0.4, but I know the game designer will be open to new formulas if no desirable balance can be found.

    Nothing really, except perhaps for the soldier's health bonus, I personally was more referring to keeping the classes balanced after we make some other change. Knock on effects can be nasty...
     
  9. Sakiz105

    Sakiz105 Corporal

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    Stats should have a bigger impact in a fort battle.Now it's so onesided.Biggest hp wins.I believe this is the biggest issue that we are facing.Also rework adventurer's bonuses in forts,because after the job rework he will be useless.
     
  10. xDiego

    xDiego Staff Sergeant Elite Tester

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    The soldier bonus is not overpowered in my opinion. With duellers you can compensate the soldiers of the enemy.

    The thing I would like to change is like girafi said, make new fort maps. That would be more fun and bring some new tactics because it's now already 3 years the same. Have some places where attacker can hide or something like that. It would make battles more interesting and fun

    Also, battles are too long. Especially on the polish server where there is so much HP that you can almost never kill all the attackers or defenders in 55 rounds. There a battle last for at least 1h30 which is a lot of time. Decreasing the HP would be an option but then small players have disadvantage. Maybe that you can do something like this: The hp bonus per skill point on health decreases. So do the same like fort skills are calculated. That way, small players still have reasonable hp and high players have not too much hp.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  11. Bluep

    Bluep Guest

    Only for fort battles or in the whole game? :blink:
    In case of the first one - I already said I think that's no good idea - even more calculations & confusion (general game HP vs. FB HP)

    By improving the importance of the other ("real") FB skills, the HP problem would vanish very soon - who still wants to have BIG HP when he doesn't score any hits anymore and almost never dodges..? Meatball down by round 10. Fun begins for real FB skillers ^^
     
  12. killado

    killado Staff Sergeant

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    The main problem right now is that you can have 14000 hp and still dodge most of the shots against you and hit the enemy without any trouble.

    So, for example, why not use Health has a negative point on defense and attack? Something like 20% of the health points would reduce your aim and dodge on the battle. (can compare this to a fat guy trying to move around the battle field)

    That way, everyone would need to move skills into all the other skills and all would get the same drop on defense and attack... but if you go all health, you basically are a sitting duck that will get hit 90% of the shots aimed at you and you will miss 4 out of 5 shots fired.
    That way, the health would still be a factor for the battles (and to the duels) but the ones that just go for it would get nothing from the battle.

    Yeah it would rip any of those tutorials about how to get the optimal skill level for the other requirements and still have 5000 hp (not counting soldier) and would give the ones that are duelers, workers and jobs a way to get into the fray without seeing that they can´t get anything from the battles.


    And there is another thing that happened on my homeserver last week:
    An adventurer from the attack with 7000 hp jumped from the wall to the inside and got into the flag winning the fight. That attacker had 50 players from the other side all aiming for it... but his bonus stayed active for 8 rounds in a row. The ones that jumped with him, all died. The ones on the towers and the walls died... but he got 2 shots(some of them missing) each round for 8 rounds in a row and captured the flag. I know that he had the premium active, so he had 50% of possibilities of getting the bonus of invisibility active each round... but i can´t do 8 jobs in a row with 50% drop and get 8 products (at least i never had that gigantic luck). So to compensate that change with the health (that would affect mostly the soldiers since they are, mostly, the ones that go for the health) get a reduced point into the calculations of the bonuses of the other classes.
    Shooter: each time they get a critical, next round they would get a 50% reduction on the hit.
    Adventurer: each time the bonus activated, next round he would have only half of the possibility of been invisible.

    The worker... that one is almost a extincted class on the new servers. So let it stay with there bonus.

    PS- There is another option... but people like less than the ones i placed above: the flag and the sectors that touch the flag would deactivate all bonus on the people that are there. (soldier excluded since that one is a permanent)
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  13. Cienfuegos

    Cienfuegos Guest

    Well, I've only experienced fort battles on the .es servers, so I don't really know if the same issues we have there are similar to the ones in other servers...I've been into fort battles for a long time there

    For me, the biggest issue with fort battles is that they are too linear and predictable right now, you have 3 or 4 strategies and counter-strategies, and at the end of the day is all reduced to tanks and their health

    I think some randomness in battle would be nice: different maps, as stated before, objects in the maps that could be used to take some cover, the chance of hitting an enemy with a lost bullet, or big weapons like cannons or gatlings located on strategic spots used to deal extra damage or sector damage, which could only be used 3 or 4 times...to add some diversity to the battle, It would add a lot of strategy deciding when to fire a cannon against a tower to start an assault...Probably there are a lot of better ideas out there, adding diversity would be my top priority

    About character bonus, I'd leave them as they are, maybe just changing the adventurer, lowering it's perecentage down to 15, but at the same time, eliminating the necesity of getting shot twice before it applies...I'm an adventurer, and I find the bonus works a bit too much sometimes (I've soloed flags several times, and seen other do it too), but also it has always bugged me that it's the only bonus that requires damage to work while other classes have their bonus working all the time without geting harmed, and also being the only bonus that doesn't help you getting more bonds or experience, as you are not adding dodges or inflicted damage

    And finally, I'd nerf health, just for fort battles, maybe it's a bit more complex, but I think it would be better, applying the ^0.4 formula...No human being can really tank so many shots, and It's becoming imposible to win a fort fight by killing all the opponents...I tried for a long time a fort battle build without extra health, and it didn't make any difference, you are only slightly better than a pure health, but you don't last as much as he does, so being a meatball is your only chance to be a good fighter
     
  14. Diggo11

    Diggo11 The West Team Dev Team

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    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  15. ChickenMcGuy

    ChickenMcGuy Staff Sergeant

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  16. harres

    harres Private

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  17. Diggo11

    Diggo11 The West Team Dev Team

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    I would expect the effects of increasing the formula coefficient to be:
    1. Moving the best build away from 100% HP towards a blend of more leadership, plus other stats through clothes.
    2. Increasing the competitiveness of players who so happen to have fort skills (other than health) in their build.
    One of the points we discussed at length is what actually happens to "the masses" when fort skills have an observable impact, since non-fort fighters will suddenly have meaningful fort skills in unequal amounts. Ultimately, though, we found it very hard to predict due to this part of the roadmap:

    Sure! I'm not personally familiar with those builds though, my previous duellers have all been dexterity or melee-resist focused, so some averageish specs would be nice :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  18. xDiego

    xDiego Staff Sergeant Elite Tester

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    not only ranged duellers. Also melee duellers ;)

    Well all attributes on mobility (150+), like 100 skill points on dodging, 250 on aim, some reflex, some shooting/vigor.
    Something like that
     
  19. Jarema 27

    Jarema 27 Private

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    Forts are fine,everything's working,players really enjoy battles.
    Maybe something NEW?
     
  20. Cienfuegos

    Cienfuegos Guest

    The increase of the exponent seems quite interesting, but I have a question about this:

    How is it going to affect the towers/walls/buildings stats? At least on my server nowadays it's almost imposible to beat the defense of a full built fort, if fort skills influence is amplified, so will be the building bonuses, and shooting people on towers may become an impossible task

    I think the attackers should recieve some kind of extra bonus, or help, or allow some more players to fight on the attack, nowadays defending is easy