• Howdy partner! You seem new here. Why don't you make an account and join the discussion? You can register here.
    Already have one? Then you login here!
  • Welcome to the saloon, Guest!
    This is the place where you can discuss about anything you want! Well, almost.
    Try to not break any of the Rules whenever you post otherwise the sheriff might lock you down!

Update 2.128 discussion

Leones

Master Sergeant
Former Team Member
Feel free to discuss our latest update here :)

The new resistance formula is:
Code:
1 + max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, dodging)|^0.6) ÷ 3)

And a distance penalty:
Code:
distance × 1.6
 

RaiderTr

Master Sergeant
Merging all the changes so far;

New Damage formula:
( Weapon Damage + Sector Damage ) x ( 1 + [max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)|^0.6) ÷ 400)] )

New Resistance formula:
100 × (skill1 + leadership + dodging) ÷ maxHealth + Resistance Bonus

Resistance Bonus + [max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, dodging)|^0.6) ÷ 3)]

Distance
effect:
Attack Value - ( Distance x 1.6 )


> Skill1 refers to Hiding/Traps
> "Distance" calculated as a hypotenuse if its not a straight line to the target.

The new resistance formula is:

1 + max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, dodging)|^0.6) ÷ 3)
Seems whoever did the copy-pasting, forgot the power symbol ^ , ffy.

Soon I will "simplify" it.

And a distance penalty:
distance × 1.6
So ugh, basically, Damage - (Square x 1.6) ?

Wonder what's the max considered distance though. 24?
(Reference: https://wiki.the-west.net/wiki/Fort_Battles#Distance)

In that case it'd be only -39 Damage at max.
Which is basically nothing to 3.5-4k Critics from the far end of the world.

I was thinking of "Inverse proportion" at first but guess not.
 
Last edited:

DeletedUser4484

Guest
Well that penalty was already in the game for years

Well, that penalty was just 1 per square, now its 1.6 per square. For me it doesn't change anything. Still RNG based as fck.

For abs i will test some values but i don't think going this way will improve the game but even opposite, it will destroy the game, because simply people with nugget sets will have more skill points and besides OP bonuses from sets now they will get more from points.
 

RaiderTr

Master Sergeant
Well, that penalty was just 1 per square, now its 1.6 per square. For me it doesn't change anything. Still RNG based as ---
Well yea I compared with old thingy and the only change I see is, nearby squares will have slightly less Attack value. 1 or 2 at max. Basically nothing.
Reaches the same value at 24 distance. Idk if it goes more than that.

And yea, Union Officer has way too many Skill Points. Like 600-700 more than any upgraded Tombola set...
Apart from the Attack in every piece that gets doubled with an upgrade, then absurd Sector Dmg thingy.
 

jarograv

Reservist
Did it stop at 15 though or is that just where the wiki stopped?
Attack value penalty is unchanged afaik. This change impacts damage.
 

RaiderTr

Master Sergeant
Wiki stops at 24 tiles and the penalty is 15.
1.6 x 24 is 15. So it's the same in the end.
That should be a plus "+".
Yea I just noticed that. FFS.

How the hell we tanks are supposed to equal 3 skills while giving tons of SP to HP and damagers giving 0.
5K Hp "Tanks" will be the new meta or what?
 

Lordofgods

Private
I can share a bit of a few Builds, just so the community can better understand these numbers:

calculos.png
The calculations were made with IFBC sets, all of them with the 150 Sector Bonus (from Murrieta), Adventurer/Dueller class (no bonuses)
As we can see, the Resistance doesn't really go up a lot ( not so drastically compared with Damage)
Should be better to also have a "multiplier" for Resistance so that it can keep up with the Damage one.

Resistance in "normal"(say somewhat tanky) builds rises around 75-85 from the previous formula. However, since the damages of players increased around 200-300 the overall change of boths Damage and Resistance formulas still favor the Damagers. Please revisit the Damage formula...

There are also clear repurcussions from these changes, Low Level players won't really get a chance versus higher levels...etc.

One thing to notice is also that...If I understand correctly, the goal is to have "Glass Cannons" invest a bit more in HP, making it between 5000HP and 10000HP Well, as we can see Damagers sets don't have resistance...Given that almost everyone will have 900+Damage base, making it like a 9000HP Dueller just tanking max 10 shots. As in everything...Will that Trade-Off be worth it? Comparing it to full Damage ones (can handle 4 shots) one can last more than twice than the other, but having around -15 Attack and -90 Damage per shot (which I personally think 9000HP>1590HP, but I don't trust everyone to have the same judgment) Check the "spoiler" image, last 2 lines
So...even with these changes, Players are still gonna go for Damages and Fort Fights will have LESS HP than before and MORE DAMAGE.

Thank you for listening to us, but I regret to inform you that It is still NOT enough, these changes are STILL gonna make it worse.
There are many sugestions, But I can pin point some of them:
1. Remove the Sector Damage from Multiplier (giving a reduction of around 60-75 Damage)
2.Add Sector Resistance, This way there can be Tanky Duellers...and Why not, since there is Damage in sectors?
3.One that is not much loved: Making it % based resistance it really is the most simple and effective idea.
4.Damage penalty from distance...making it that Damagers need to get closer, probably incentivizing more HP builds (which is what the developers wan)
4. etc...plenty of Ideas in these threads.

SoldadoPrem.png
Union+Golden Mount

There is still plenty of work to do. As I can see in this changes, What favors the most is having the Highest (and balanced) Number of Points in our Clouthes/Weapon/Mount. So please keep that in mind in the next Tombolas, players will always pick the set with Higher Points (or the one with the Damage Sector :p)
 
Last edited:

RaiderTr

Master Sergeant
Surely, set bonuses will need a serious rework.. At least equal the Hiding and Traps. So that we waste slightly less SP into non-Hp.

Btw apparently we underestimated the Distance hit penalty.
Idk what else we were supposed to understand from Distance x 1.6 though. Or is it by chance x16 :p
 

Lordofgods

Private
Yeap, In the battle for the fort Hawaii (22/06) Tankers just DOUBLED or more their dodged shots. I really think that this is positive :)
The top person with dodged shots was an offline player that stayed put at the south of the map...getting Line of Sight from Soldier/South.Wall/East.Wall/Adventure... as raider sugested, are the values correct, any chance for some mistakes in the code?
 
Last edited:

RaiderTr

Master Sergeant
Those hit ratios dont make any sense tho :hmf: like 4 hits 40 misses? wth?
And Tanks survive 25-30 avg again.. max Dodges seem to be 100, so its still 2 or 3 rounds to survive on point, at best.
 

Venozmat

Reservist
Oh, I'm so happy.

I was trying to make my build. A premium lvl 150 soldier with Murrieta's set and viewfinder buff.

qGpASb1.png


Sincerely, I don't know which one I should choose:

FULL HP with 17,29k HP:
XmHqdpO.png


As InnoGames it's trying to make we play in 1,59k HP:
zFtbKv3.png

(And yes, I know that we need to "equalize" the skills, but soldier has 50% bonus in leadership)
(If you try to equalize the damage will be lesser)

Or, I don't know, with a 10k solider "BALANCED":
rf7aBaI.png


Oh, I forgot to put some features like some op sets with sector damage, but no, this doen't matter.
So Which one should I use?
 
Last edited:

Lordofgods

Private
So Which one I should use?
I think the "balanced" with 10000HP is the better one, you keep the Damages and most of the Attack, the 7000HP missed is somewhat important, overall depends on what your Server needs and you can "get away with". One Idea, trying mixing it up with Livingston, the Mount (horse and saddle) can also be better (expecially if you are getting the full sector bonus Damage anyway)
 

RaiderTr

Master Sergeant
4 questions:
> Why Sector Damage is multiplied but Resistance isn't, although it's an individual bonus unlike the former.
And as you very well know, the Set bonuses aren't on 1:2 ratio, respectively. Even with 0 Hp Tank sets.
> Why there is no Sector Resistance?
> Don't you realise that Damage formula is easily manipulable with Weapon upgrades (apart from other items), while you can't do any such thing with Resistance?
For; 1st, Hp kills it, 2nd, there is no Resistance item that we can upgrade with 40-50 resist let alone 400-500 value, and 3rd, Resistance isn't multiplied.
> Shouldnt you be increasing Hp penalty of Dmg formula?

Now I know that we don't want to go back to "Impregnable" Tanks/Forts era but apparently Distance won't effect Damages-Critics and the results of these changes (without everyone reskilling to "Optimal" builds even) turned out to be a catastrophe for Defenders again.

Because the Damage increase of Tanks surpassed the Resistance increase. Simple as that. I mean, with Tank gear, 13k Hp, 300+ resist, I still easily see 1.5 damage multiplier..
Maybe no-Hp damagers doing a bit less Damage now, but not that much.

Okay now we seem to have Distance effecting hit chances by A LOT. But is that really a solution?! (6 hits 40 misses seem ridiculous at best anyway!)
I mean Soldier "Tanks" still die with 30 shots in average (even less so for others) and 100 dodge don't really mean much to me. Since that's not more than 2 rounds on point.

Besides, we still didn't test Union's hit ratio and Damages.. But I have a guess.
Around 1.2-1.3k Damage per hit with still decent hit chances + giving that absurd Sector Damage to everyone else, which gets multiplied by "Tanks" even, which, roughly, 300 more damage!! :D

And since "Tanks" will have much less Hp now.. GG.
 
Last edited:

Lordofgods

Private
I mean Soldier "Tanks" still die with 30 shots in average (even less so for others) and 100 dodge don't really mean much to me. Since that's not more than 2 rounds on point.
Dying in 50 shots and dodging another 50 shots is equals to overall 100 shots evaded that is worse than dying in 30 shots and dodging 100, 100<130. What counts is the number of shots the Tank endured...that means Dodged and hits Taken.
 

RaiderTr

Master Sergeant
I don't care. I didn't say 50-50 is what we needed.
Read the 2nd sentence again and again dammit. Then the whole thing.

Otherwise please don't answer...
 
Top